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Downtown/Back Bay Boston: 242,900
Center City Philadelphia: 288,227
You used the Boston figure fromModerator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowedreport, but then use a figure for Philadelphia from a totally different source, which doesn't have figures for Boston. Was there a reason for this, or was it just because they listed Philadelphia as smaller than Boston (with 239,625 jobs)?
I'm sure these numbers are probably slightly outdated for Boston where the Philadelphia numbers are for 2015 but I would assume Center City/UCity is either ahead in total employment or they're close.
Ultimately, if we look at the square footage these areas, we should be able to get a decent snapshot. Let's take a look at the numbers:
This includes Back Bay, with 12,559,253 SF of space but doesn't include Cambridge, which has 10,248,594 SF of office space and another 8,356,585 SF of lab space.
Boston's total there is 84,780,073 square feet, while Philadelphia's is 43,774,170 square feet. Does it make sense that Philadelphia would have 20% more people working in its downtown areas while having 52% of the work space of Boston? In my opinion, no it doesn't.
There might be an Eastern side to the city of Denver but there is no East of Denver.Its all parched dirt my man. You cant live there.
Don't be daft? I was in Denver 2 weeks ago. I was looking at the development of Eastern Denver and all points to the East. Parched dirt? Dude, we have developed cities in Las Vegas & Phoenix. They're in the middle of the desert. Why wouldn't we be able to build on dirt? It appears you're looking at Google Maps, seeing brown to the East of the city and yelling "UNBUILDABLE!". You're also ignoring the fact that the North and South are totally open.
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But Philadelphia is near or notch below in most regards to Boston other than venture capital. Boston has been consistently top 2 bio tech hub Philly top 5. Certainly close enough that there must be other factors that explain the vast difference in real estate values.
I think the gap between Boston & Philadelphia is larger than you think when it comes to biotech. Boston's also the 2nd or 3rd largest financial services center in North America, so there's another factor that comes into play.
You used the Boston figure from Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed report, but then use a figure for Philadelphia from a totally different source, which doesn't have figures for Boston. Was there a reason for this, or was it just because they listed Philadelphia as smaller than Boston (with 239,625 jobs)?
This is the employment of the workforce residents of Cambridge, not the employment levels in the city of Cambridge.
If you looked at my post, I clearly stated I used the numbers for the other report for Philadelphia because those are the 2015 numbers, and the most recent, while I clearly stated Boston's numbers were from 2014 and likely outdated. All in all, I wouldn't be surprised if they were similar numbers.
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Ultimately, if we look at the square footage these areas, we should be able to get a decent snapshot. Let's take a look at the numbers:
This includes Back Bay, with 12,559,253 SF of space but doesn't include Cambridge, which has 10,248,594 SF of office space and another 8,356,585 SF of lab space.
Boston's total there is 84,780,073 square feet, while Philadelphia's is 43,774,170 square feet. Does it make sense that Philadelphia would have 20% more people working in its downtown areas while having 52% of the work space of Boston? In my opinion, no it doesn't.
Amount of office space does not correlate to number of jobs. That's silly. For instance - as has been stated - Downtown and Back Bay Boston have a ton of Finance and government jobs, which tends to have a higher square foot per employee than smaller start-ups, tech companies, law firms, etc.
Also, Boston's numbers include the Back bay, fair enough, but what do Philadelphia's numbers include? It says East of Broad and West of Broad, but do they go North of Vine Street at all? Where is the northern and southern boundaries? Do they include Old City numbers? Callowhill? Franklintown/Museum District?
Also, Apples to Oranges comparison again. You throw in Cambridge numbers to inflate Boston's numbers but don't include University City for Philadelphia with it's 4 million square feet of office space and 5.1 million square feet of lab space. This brings Philadelphia's core numbers to 53 million in total. Again, we're looking at drastically different square mileage numbers. Downtown and Back Bay Boston is ~2 square miles while Center City is ~3 square miles. However, Cambridge is ~7 square miles while University City is 2 square miles. Therefore we're comparing 9 square miles of Boston to 5 square miles of Philadelphia. That's not entirely fair at all.
These numbers don't include Hospitals or University usage either. Philadelphia has a ton of large hospitals in the core: Penn Medicine, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Penn Presbyterian, Hahnemann, Thomas Jefferson and Pennsylvania Hospital are all located in the core Center City and University City. The only major Hospital in the Core of Boston is Mass General. I don't have time to look up the numbers, but let's say each hospital is a rough 4 million square feet in Real Estate, that adds 20 million more square feet to Philadelphia for a total of 73 million square feet vs. ~88 million for Boston.
Including large Universities Downtown, Philadelphia has University of Pennsylvania, Drexel University, Community College of Philadelphia, Thomas Jefferson, University of the Arts and a significant presence from Temple University. Lets say UPenn and Drexel have 4 million square feet while TJU, CCP, UArts and Temple all have 2 million square feet Downtown. This adds another 16 million to Philadelphia's number for a total of 89 million.
Boston? The only significant Universities in the core are Harvard and MIT. 4 million each for those adds another 8 million or 96 million. The numbers are coming even closer together now.
Point is, there is a ton more that go into total jobs than square footage of office space.
15-20 Miles East of Denver its Dust Bowl Dead my man. 15 miles to the west you are in the Rocky Mountains.
Denver has a nicely isolated setting that sets up well for housing values. Ditto Bay Area,LA, SD,Seattle,Boston. Salt Lake City is another cute little mountain town if it ever ramps up its economy.
Back on the East coast from Atlantic City to Lancaster is the Philadelphia regions wingspan E-W.
Allentown-Cape May N-S.
150 miles E-W.
150 miles N-S
Of the most livable land you could ask for. Plenty of room to spread out, real estate values suppressed. You need water? You got it, 50 inches of rain a year. You want a farm, Ive got 2,000 sq miles for you to look at. You want 100 acres for a housing development? I have 2000 sq miles for you to look at. Same thing with Atlanta,Dallas,Houston although none have the countryside & coast that Philadelphia has.
Atlanta,Dallas,Houston have been the 3 hottest economic engines in the country yet their real estate values are less than 1/2 of the coastal cities. Why? Because they are all surrounded by thousands of sq miles of livable land.
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I think the gap between Boston & Philadelphia is larger than you think when it comes to biotech. Boston's also the 2nd or 3rd largest financial services center in North America, so there's another factor that comes into play.
Ok then lets say Bostons biotech sector is more desirable than Philadlephias. Everything else is very similar and in many cases Philadelphia surpasses Boston.
Denver is one of the most unconstrained cities, geographically, in the entire country. As such, it really really sprawls in all directions. The city itself is actually very similar to Atlanta...
Except Denver is one of the most constrained cities and is not similar to Atlanta in anyway. Atlanta sparawls in the beautiful Piedmont.Denver is sandwiched between the Rockies and Barren Plains.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,181,377 times
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Originally Posted by rainrock
Except Denver is one of the most constrained cities and is not similar to Atlanta in anyway. Atlanta sparawls in the beautiful Piedmont.Denver is sandwiched between the Rockies and Barren Plains.
Right, because "barren" land can't be developed (see Phoenix, see Las Vegas). Honestly, your coastal argument has been debunked and you're just making Philly look bad, at this point. At least RightonWalnut is conducting a cogent argument with solid stats. Your Denver hyperbole is false and is doing Philly and your whole coastal/inland argument no favors. Just stop
Right, because "barren" land can't be developed (see Phoenix, see Las Vegas).
See Colorado River See Lake Mead. See historic western drought. See - there is a reason huge cities werent meant to be built in the desert.
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Originally Posted by qworldorder
Honestly, your coastal argument has been debunked and you're just making Philly look bad, at this point.
Absurd.
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Originally Posted by qworldorder
Your Denver hyperbole is false and is doing Philly and your whole coastal/inland argument no favors. Just stop
I taught a geology class in Colorado for 10 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.There is no water source for the area east of Denver. The water source for the Plains is the Ogallala Acquifier and its drying up at an historic pace. They can barely water the wheat and corn crops of Nebraska,and Kansas,Texas.
Instead of popping off why dont you try to educate yourself.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,181,377 times
Reputation: 2925
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Originally Posted by rainrock
See Colorado River See Lake Mead. See historic western drought. See - there is a reason huge cities werent meant to be built in the desert.
Absurd.
I taught a geology class in Colorado for 10 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.There is no water source for the area east of Denver. The water source for the Plains is the Ogallala Acquifier and its drying up at an historic pace. They can barely water the wheat and corn crops of Nebraska,and Kansas,Texas.
Instead of popping off why dont you try to educate yourself.
Now you're shifting the definition of "geographically constrained" to suit your argument. How cute. The fact is, Denver is not geographically constrained to expand east--or north, or south. Lack of water does not hem in cities the way mountains and oceans do. Colorado may be facing a water shortfall, but that doesn't necessarily prevent geographic expansion. Indeed, Colorado is expected to nearly double in population by 2050, which is why Denver Water is trying so hard in its conservation efforts.
But in this modern era of technology, transportation and commerce, do you really think a solution won't be found? That's extremely pessimistic. Denver and the rest of the West/Southwest will continue to grow. It might be expensive and a political headache, but c'mon now, let's be real.
P.S. I lived in Colorado for 5 years and I've studied geology. If you want to get into an ethical debate about water usage, fine. But to claim constraint solely on that issue? I'll just keep pointing to thriving cities literally built in the desert. Can you point to a thriving metropolis built on the side of a mountain?
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