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I will say this much, I don't have any biases in arguments for "most powerful city" discussions because if I did have a bias for anywhere it would inherently be a bias on behalf of Miami, but I'm not retarded and recognize that there are at least 9-10 places more important than Southeast Florida, at least.
That being said, when Bostonians make the argument that they are 6th in the United States after the mostly agreed upon Top 5 of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco Bay Area, and Washington DC-Baltimore -- Bostonians have to be talking about it in terms of CSA.
If they're talking about Boston in the context of MSA, it is NOT 6th, it is NOT 7th, but if it keeps it up, it has a real shot of becoming 8th in two years or so. Boston derives size and power off CSA, its Gross Domestic Product (GDP), population, and Total Personal Income (TPI) jump incrementally going from MSA to CSA. At CSA level, Boston THEN becomes the 6th largest population center in America, the 7th largest economy in America, and the 7th richest city in America when total personal wealth of every human being within the CSA boundaries is accounted for.
Without CSA, honestly, it is a laughable argument to suggest Boston is 6th. A smaller economy with less purchasing power, less rich region (in total sums, not per capita), and smaller population center -- all of which happen to Boston at MSA level, doesn't make you bypass bigger, more powerful, and richer (again in total sums, not per capita) areas with more purchasing power on an overall basis.
So CSA is a huge argument for Boston, in my opinion, it is the only measurement that makes Boston actually compete for 6th. I know it has key industries but if the industries really were world-beaters on a mass scale, they'd push its economy ahead of the competition (I.E. San Francisco Bay Area, Houston, Washington DC).
I view Boston as 6th-7th overall (along with Houston), based off its CSA placement in key categories. If we look at MSAs then I would have to slip it behind New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Washington D.C., Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, San Francisco/Oakland, and possibly Philadelphia -- in that exact same order.
But again, as me and rainrock are trying to tell you, Boston's CSA includes Providence. They are 50 miles apart.
Philadelphia to Allentown is 60 miles. Philadelphia to Trenton is 30 miles.
Allentown and Trenton are not included in the Philadelphia CSA. Its in the New York CSA, despite being culturally and physically closer to NYC.
Now, we all understand the CSA definitions and commuter %, but culturally speaking, traditionally and historically, Allentown and Trenton have been more tied to Philadelphia.
IMO, CSA's run heavily into shared areas. Washington and Baltimore is extreme grey area for example. Their economies largely have nothing to do with eachother. The Bay Area more or less functions as one on all levels. Thats why that is really the one true example of where a CSA makes sense. Hell, San Jose and the Silicon Valley saved San Francisco's ass from the recession. That city was hit hard. Do Providence and Boston function together on all levels? I think its a slap in the face to those from Providence.
Philadelphia's CSA gets shortchanged quite a bit from losing out on those two areas. Everyone would lose to NYC in CSA because its not only the economic engine for its region but the entire US and arguably the world.
Trenton IMO would count as a shared economic area between Philadelphia and NYC (nowadays at least) and so would Allentown, but culturally its Philadelphia and SE PA.
Lets add Shenzhen to San Francisco's CSA while we're at it since Apple employs Chinese workers from there to make all our Apple products, etc.
Where does the OBM account for those who work from home?
Where does the OBM truly draw the line for commuting definitions? Does it really have to be 15%? Why not 20%? 30%? I think immediate urban area is what matters most. These rankings are pointless.
That's why Boston to me would be 6 and I always say that Boston is on the edge of being world class because it has everything from infrastructure to a good economy to a great higher education system. When Houston can build a transit system that just about every world class city has, then we can start talking about it being a top 5 American city.
I disagree. I think to be considered world class you actually need to be world class in almost every aesthetic ie: food, nightlife, culture, museums, art, music, in addition to economy, education and infrastructure.
Boston is great for education, biotech and finance (economically at the moment) and little else.
I disagree. I think to be considered world class you actually need to be world class in almost every aesthetic ie: food, nightlife, culture, museums, art, music, in addition to economy, education and infrastructure.
Boston is great for education, biotech and finance (economically at the moment) and little else.
Well that basically rules out every city but New York.
Well that basically rules out every city but New York.
Exactly. Aside from New York, and maybe LA, all the other cities are niche cities that are pretty comparable to each other, except maybe by subjective criteria.
But again, as me and rainrock are trying to tell you, Boston's CSA includes Providence. They are 50 miles apart.
Philadelphia to Allentown is 60 miles. Philadelphia to Trenton is 30 miles.
Allentown and Trenton are not included in the Philadelphia CSA. Its in the New York CSA, despite being culturally and physically closer to NYC.
Now, we all understand the CSA definitions and commuter %, but culturally speaking, traditionally and historically, Allentown and Trenton have been more tied to Philadelphia.
IMO, CSA's run heavily into shared areas. Washington and Baltimore is extreme grey area for example. Their economies largely have nothing to do with eachother. The Bay Area more or less functions as one on all levels. Thats why that is really the one true example of where a CSA makes sense. Hell, San Jose and the Silicon Valley saved San Francisco's ass from the recession. That city was hit hard. Do Providence and Boston function together on all levels? I think its a slap in the face to those from Providence.
Philadelphia's CSA gets shortchanged quite a bit from losing out on those two areas. Everyone would lose to NYC in CSA because its not only the economic engine for its region but the entire US and arguably the world.
Trenton IMO would count as a shared economic area between Philadelphia and NYC (nowadays at least) and so would Allentown, but culturally its Philadelphia and SE PA.
Lets add Shenzhen to San Francisco's CSA while we're at it since Apple employs Chinese workers from there to make all our Apple products, etc.
Where does the OBM account for those who work from home?
Where does the OBM truly draw the line for commuting definitions? Does it really have to be 15%? Why not 20%? 30%? I think immediate urban area is what matters most. These rankings are pointless.
The people that work from home and legally file their taxes are counted as employed in the county that they reside in. They count as the overall employment base for that and only that county.
Right and like I said, Boston as an MSA wouldn't be making an argument for 6th most prominent in America. Explain to me how a 4.7 million persons area with only the 9th largest economy, 9th largest aggregate value in total personal income bypasses 3-4 other larger cities, with larger economies, with more aggregate value in income? It doesn't.
Boston as a CSA with 8 million people, an economy that exceeds $500 Billion, and the 6th highest total personal income can make an argument for 6th in the United States and I personally go with Boston overall for 6th.
As for your gripes on CSA, I don't really understand, why is this an issue in the first place. Everything you specifically stated is not unique to just those American cities but can be said about any city with a CSA and really can be applied to a HELLUVA lot of cities all over the world. Practically any city of significant size or relevancy has an extended region ("CSA"). No one is saying that people from Providence are subjects of Boston or Bostonians or that their culture, identity, or existence should be reshaped in Boston's image. People are saying that they are one region that share economical, commuter, infrastructure, and likely social factors with one another.
I mean Chicago is essentially a crime-ridden warzone, with high levels of poverty, blight, corruption, an awful topography and climate compared to Barcelona. Which one is more important/powerful? Chicago. Which one is more world class? Barcelona.
Atlanta is essentially a crime-ridden warzone, with high levels of poverty, ghetto areas, low-density, inefficient infrastructure, lack of iconic traits compared to Rome. Which one is more important/powerful? Atlanta. Which one is more world class? Rome.
Washington DC is essentially a crime-ridden warzone, with high poverty, dysfunctional public schools, a problem with STDs compared to Amsterdam. Which one is more important/powerful? Washington. Which one is more world class? Amsterdam.
Miami is essentially a crime-ridden warzone, a bloothbath, with dysfunctional poverty stricken areas, inefficient infrastructure compared to Saint Petersburg. Which one is more important/powerful? Miami. Which one is more world class? Saint Petersburg.
Dubai is super well known, desirable to superrich investors, surging and becoming globally important, whereas Montreal is not as important but much more world class.
World class and powerful aren't the same thing.
Get your point, though DC is in many ways as world class as Amsterdam, and Rome is more important and powerful than Atlanta by a large stretch.
Get your point, though DC is in many ways as world class as Amsterdam, and Rome is more important and powerful than Atlanta.
I could live with that.
This isn't to say that I actually view Chicago, Miami, Washington, or Atlanta as war-zones (I actually do view Chicago and Washington as world class cities but towards the second half of the global world class lists). I was just trying to make a point to someone that was arguing that importance/power is heavily correlated with world class/prestige/desirability.
No its not. Lots of world class cities in the world are not important (globally speaking), whereas lots of cities around the world are powerful but not world class (again, globally speaking).
I didn't really mean any foul game with the examples, just trying to drive an idea home in a way where the person would get it.
New York/London/Tokyo/Paris are both world class and powerful, but these cities are also the exceptions to the world and not the rule for what average/ordinary global cities are like. Other cities cannot achieve what these cities can, nor are other cities thought of in the same way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John
The people that work from home and legally file their taxes are counted as employed in the county that they reside in. They count as the overall employment base for that and only that county.
Right and like I said, Boston as an MSA wouldn't be making an argument for 6th most prominent in America. Explain to me how a 4.7 million persons area with only the 9th largest economy, 9th largest aggregate value in total personal income bypasses 3-4 other larger cities, with larger economies, with more aggregate value in income? It doesn't.
Boston as a CSA with 8 million people, an economy that exceeds $500 Billion, and the 6th highest total personal income can make an argument for 6th in the United States and I personally go with Boston overall for 6th.
As for your gripes on CSA, I don't really understand, why is this an issue in the first place. Everything you specifically stated is not unique to just those American cities but can be said about any city with a CSA and really can be applied to a HELLUVA lot of cities all over the world. Practically any city of significant size or relevancy has an extended region ("CSA"). No one is saying that people from Providence are subjects of Boston or Bostonians or that their culture, identity, or existence should be reshaped in Boston's image. People are saying that they are one region that share economical, commuter, infrastructure, and likely social factors with one another.
Why must extended regions become the new default definition for "cities" though? Don't you see how, little by little, "Boston" or *insert city* becomes ever larger and more important without actually commensurately expanding its own urban footprint? How we consider low density areas that lack the unique physical and social characteristics of the core of Boston "Boston" anyway? True, it's a global phenomenon, but that doesn't mean it isn't up for debate as to whether extended regions in the States aren't inflated. At this rate, "Boston" will soon be BosWash if no one questions these increasingly larger measurements.
Why must extended regions become the new default definition for "cities" though? Don't you see how, little by little, "Boston" or *insert city* becomes ever larger and more important without actually commensurately expanding its own urban footprint? How we consider low density areas that lack the unique physical and social characteristics of the core of Boston "Boston" anyway? True, it's a global phenomenon, but that doesn't mean it isn't up for debate as to whether extended regions in the States aren't inflated. At this rate, "Boston" will soon be BosWash if no one questions these increasingly larger measurements.
If "pressed" I personally prefer Demographia's/United Nations' Urban Area rankings the best as the proper gauge for the size of a city.
It uses the same standards for every world city, it has the same minimum threshold and requirement for every world city, its legit and the casualties in using it as a ranking are minimum (Bangkok, Washington, and London are the only relevant cities slighted by it).
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