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I concur with emphasizing the trades as far as pay and benefits go. In my city if you get a normal business-type bachelor's degree you will start out making $25,000 a year (if you get a job) and top out at $50,000 a year (and you'll be working 50+ hours a week). Local union tradesmen easily pull in $65,000 just putting in 40 hour work weeks. Factor in overtime and side-work and a lot of the union guys I worked with were taking home about $90,000 a year. Also, when they retire they will get $3,000 per month pensions and will have anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000 in their deferred compensation account. Plus the health benefits are as good as you can get with pretty much any job.
That being said, the trades are not for everyone. Most of the people you will encounter are nice, but there are some real *******s who will make your apprenticeship miserable. You need to have a very thick skin. Also, be prepared to be exposed to the elements, get dirty, and rip up your hands. It is not usually fun work.
I was in a union apprenticeship program for six months before I dropped out. It just was not for me. I belong in an air-conditioned office - even if it means that I will make half of what I would have as a journeyman in my trade. It is doubly hard for women in the trades. They go through even more bull**** than I did.
Yes, I actually think we should begin assessing people's post high school capabilities while they are still in high school. I think we should do a comprehensive assessment of each student's trackrecord in school. If they arent trending towards being a smart, diligent, studious student, by the end of high school then I think we should strongly encourage them to get a trade or go to vocational school. There is nothing wrong with vocational education, or getting a trade.
I have a bachelors degree which is pretty useful, and I would encourage kids to go to vocational school or trade school rather than college. If they arent able to do trade school, they should be encouraged to join the military. However, I think that if a student has obtained a trade, and STILL finds themselves wanting to attend college, then they should be allowed to. But I think they should be encouraged to go to vocational school first.
I am not in favor of channeling kids at 16-17 years of age to decide what they are going to "do" for the rest of their lives. These kids will be working about 50 years post high school. They need some maturity before they commit to a career. It becomes difficult to change careers once you have a marriage, a mortgage, kids, etc.
OTOH, I have nothing against the trades for people who want to pursue them.
I am not in favor of channeling kids at 16-17 years of age to decide what they are going to "do" for the rest of their lives. These kids will be working about 50 years post high school. They need some maturity before they commit to a career. It becomes difficult to change careers once you have a marriage, a mortgage, kids, etc.
OTOH, I have nothing against the trades for people who want to pursue them.
This is why I said that if students who have proven to be underachievers still want to go to college, after they have completed tradeschool, they could definitely do so. But since people always say that if everyone would just work harder and do well in college, they would get a job, then this would sift out those students who have proven not to be as serious about their academics, and we could then influence them to get a trade or do something that would be worth their while.
That way only the truly smart, studious people would become educated in useful white collar fields and the rest would be steered into tradeschool. We would have a healthy blue collar workforce, and a healthy white collar workforce, and those people who complete a trade, and go on to enroll in college would be that much more marketable.
True, we have too many people who have no use for the skills that they obtained in college, yet they still have a mountain of debt. These people neither have a use for their college skills, nor do they have trade skills. They are dead weight in this society.
Part of the blame should go to universities that keep offering stupid and useless degree plans and programs. Isn't there goal to put out highly educated and productive students?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
True, we have too many people who have no use for the skills that they obtained in college, yet they still have a mountain of debt. These people neither have a use for their college skills, nor do they have trade skills. They are dead weight in this society.
I would hope so called talented people would have the smarts to start their own business. Why do they need a college degree to be successful in life?
Some highly profitable sole proprietorships require the education. E.g Medicine, Law.
Sure, anyone can start a menial jobs business. But not everyone wants to.
Also, banks are more willing to lend to advanced degree holders. So if you want to finance a building for say, your Chiropractic Practice or whatever, you're going to have to get the credentials.
Of course if you already *have* boatloads of money, then there are some classier business you can walk right into.
So short answer, if you are poor, you can get loans to get started in the education based businesses.
Businesses that you can start on a shoestring that will pay the bills, generally suck in terms if what you actually do every day, least it looks that way to me.
Some highly profitable sole proprietorships require the education. E.g Medicine, Law.
Sure, anyone can start a menial jobs business. But not everyone wants to.
Also, banks are more willing to lend to advanced degree holders. So if you want to finance a building for say, your Chiropractic Practice or whatever, you're going to have to get the credentials.
Of course if you already *have* boatloads of money, then there are some classier business you can walk right into.
So short answer, if you are poor, you can get loans to get started in the education based businesses.
Businesses that you can start on a shoestring that will pay the bills, generally suck in terms if what you actually do every day, least it looks that way to me.
Thanks for saying that. There seem to be many who think you can just open a business with no more than a standard high school education. Most business owners have some skill, e.g. electrician, plumbing, painting, etc. The other thing you need is business skills. I once had a cleaning lady who bought the business. She may have been a good cleaning lady, but she was a horrible business person. After many issues, I quit using her. I never had any problems when someone else owned the business.
Thanks for saying that. There seem to be many who think you can just open a business with no more than a standard high school education. Most business owners have some skill, e.g. electrician, plumbing, painting, etc. The other thing you need is business skills. I once had a cleaning lady who bought the business. She may have been a good cleaning lady, but she was a horrible business person. After many issues, I quit using her. I never had any problems when someone else owned the business.
I do know successful business owners who did not go to college.
In one case, though it was passed down the family lineage.
In the other, it was a car repair business and was started back in the time before cars had OBD II and other computerized subsystems, etc. And he just grew with it.
Guess my main points are:
1) The education can't hurt and aids somethings like
a. getting loans
b. ability to communicate "on the level" with high dollar clientele.
2) Most of the businesses you can start on the cheap, without an education fall into the menial category. Most of us don't want to be in those businesses.
3) If you have money already, sky's the limit, but chances are, if you were born into money, family will have inculcated you with a need to get educated.
4) But, nothing says "it can't be done". I know folks who have. But generally it's been non-recreateable circumstances. They knew the right people, had the right family, just plain "right place, right time", etc.
5) If you have a burning desire to start a business and eschew upper education, and can make a realistic business plan that stands up to the light of day, surely, go for it.
6) Might not hurt to have a "plan B", even it you do get a Harvard MBA, LOL!
That way only the truly smart, studious people would become educated in useful white collar fields and the rest would be steered into tradeschool. We would have a healthy blue collar workforce, and a healthy white collar workforce, and those people who complete a trade, and go on to enroll in college would be that much more marketable.
What concerns me here is academic and intellectual disparity, which is already a problem imo. As it stands, 70% of the US population does not have a college education. The marjority of the ~28-30% of those who do, have, what many proport, less than useful degrees. For those in medicine, the sciences/technology, and law...what percentage is that? Maybe 5%. So, should only 5-10% of the population be educated? I don't think that's the way to go.
In short, I don't think less people should become formally educated, rather the academic machine needs to be contended with. It's ridiculous that it's so expensive.
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