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1. The Cost of Living index in Long Island is 400 (average for the country is 100). The Cost of Living index in Colorado Springs is 91. So I'm not sure that comparing Long Island with Colorado Springs is very appropriate.
2. I do agree with you, that teacher raises in many districts across the country are misleading during those years when they also receive step increases. I don't know about LI, but in most school districts not all teachers receive step increases all years. And, for example in the school district where I used to be a principal in the D.C. area, they haven't gotten a raise or step increase in over 3 years.
3. In regard to your 20/20 hindsight, most people go into teaching because they want to teach, not because it's financially lucrative. However, it is well documented that Long Island schools' teacher pay is substantially above the natural average.
4. As a New York Stater you have a right to do something many people in the U.S. don't have a right to do -- vote on the actual school budget. And, if the Long Island residents vote to mostly pass school budgets, then perhaps they think that to attract good teachers it's worth the price. That's called democracy. To the rest of the people here in the Colorado forum -- do Coloradans vote on the actual school budget? I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, although my impression is here in Colorado Springs we do not.
Now, what line of work are you and/or your spouse in? How much do you earn per year? Perhaps I/we think that is too lucrative, also.
Enough already about Long Island!
To answser your question, no, the voters do not vote on the school budget in any city where I have lived in Colorado.
1. The Cost of Living index in Long Island is 400 (average for the country is 100). The Cost of Living index in Colorado Springs is 91. So I'm not sure that comparing Long Island with Colorado Springs is very appropriate.
The point was that while paying more in taxes, we aren't receiving the quality of services commensurate with level of taxation.
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2. I do agree with you, that teacher raises in many districts across the country are misleading during those years when they also receive step increases. I don't know about LI, but in most school districts not all teachers receive step increases all years. And, for example in the school district where I used to be a principal in the D.C. area, they haven't gotten a raise or step increase in over 3 years.
As I am unfamiliar with CO or DC schools and they way they are organized (county, city, or small districts) I deferred to you to explain. Here (127 districts within 2 counties) each district's school board enters closed negotiations with the teacher's unions. SeeThroughNy.com | Home lists each districts conracts, as well as pay for each teacher and administrator.
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3. In regard to your 20/20 hindsight, most people go into teaching because they want to teach, not because it's financially lucrative. However, it is well documented that Long Island schools' teacher pay is substantially above the natural average.
I don't disagree with you; there are many teachers who have followed their calling into the teaching profession. A fair portion of the younger set here, however, have entered into it for long term reasons -- good pay, benefits, retirement.
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4. As a New York Stater you have a right to do something many people in the U.S. don't have a right to do -- vote on the actual school budget. And, if the Long Island residents vote to mostly pass school budgets, then perhaps they think that to attract good teachers it's worth the price. That's called democracy. To the rest of the people here in the Colorado forum -- do Coloradans vote on the actual school budget? I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, although my impression is here in Colorado Springs we do not.
The general budgets we are given to vote on over the past 6-7 years have been along the lines of 'which is the lesser of two evils?' We don't get to vote on contracts; we do have the opportunity to vote on how much more we will pay to maintain the status quo after salary obligations are taken into account, or how much we will lose to have our taxes increase a little after salary obligations are taken into account. Just to give you an idea what one very poor district had happen -- faced with $5 million dollar lose in state aid, the tax payers had a budget increase of 5% which would eliminate 110 teachers, or an increase of 13% which would eliminate 50 teachers but save sports and extracurriculars.
I see that you asked your fellow COSer's about the schools/budgets there. I would like to learn more about somewhere else.
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Now, what line of work are you and/or your spouse in? How much do you earn per year? Perhaps I/we think that is too lucrative, also.
My husband's salary as a small business owner has stagnated at $100K for 4 years. I stopped taking a small salary several years ago as business costs have gone up, in an effort to keep things afloat. (I am part time with children in school -- I raise them, not a nanny.) As costs rise, our buying power has decreased, effectively making that $100K less now. Our business specializes in restoring historic homes (yes, we've worked on a home George Washington slept in as well as several stops on the Underground Railroad) and do some volunteer work for local preservation groups. It's challenging, rewarding, and while it's not the same as shaping young minds -- it has allowed us to help people save beautiful structures from the ravages of time and previous 'repairs' done by either inexperienced repairmen or homeowners who didn't understand all of the forces at work on a building. (Yes, we can thank a number of math teachers!)
If we look at this from a business perspective -- someone can come to my office, receive a quote and decide if they want my service for the price given them. If I am not competitive, I lose business. Taxpayers do not have that option when it comes to unionized town employees, teachers, Police, etc. Given what we pay to the aforementioned groups and others -- this should be Lake Wobegon.
To both the Mod and OP: I am sorry. It was not my intention to make this a LI thing; my initial post was to show that you don't always get more when you pay more.
The people in the Springs who don't have children in school object to paying school taxes. The ones who don't ride the bus object to paying for the city bus system. The ones who don't read object to paying for the library district. The fundamentalists object to paying for ANYTHING because the Rapture will happen any day. Retired military object to public health spending and clinics for the low income because they have the VA. Ect., ect., ect., ect.
Colorado Springs is populated by various groups, all of whom are unwilling to let go of a single penny to help their fellow man. It's everyone for themselves there, and that's how they like it.
I haven't followed the entire discussion, so my apologies if someone has already made this point, but I live in California, one of the most over-taxed states in the country. Under the OPs reasoning, state offices here should be giving us 5-star service based on the taxes here. But just about all aspects of state and local level governments in this state have poor quality and services are being cut. Low taxes is not the problem and high taxes is not the solution. Holding government accountable is a start. Holding the bureaucracy accountable is a little more difficult because we don't get to vote them out. But if we could figure out a way to do that, I'm sure we would see a profound increase in the quality of government services. Even without higher taxes.
It's an endless circle that will never be solved for the simple fact that people themselves are flawed and wasteful.
So true. So here's a question, food for thought, so to speak. Consider someone who is a "big spender" with his own money. Perhaps those around him consider him to be extravagant or wasteful. Then this guy turns around and puts the govt on blast for their irresponsible spending? Is it hypocritical?
My answer is no. People are free to choose how they spend their money. And as long as they are not going into debt, so what if people are spending their money on "frivolous" things. I do not think we should concern ourselves with the spending habits of individuals. (Debt is another issue because it does reach a point where it effects all of us. A discussion for another thread.)
But public money is something that is entirely different. There is a certain level of trust that we place in our public leaders. Taxes and government are not optional, we need both. So we elect leaders, and they set the taxes and in turn spend on programs and services. What they should remember is that they are spending our money, not their own.
That's where I make the distinction. I wonder what others here may think.
...Colorado Springs is populated by various groups, all of whom are unwilling to let go of a single penny to help their fellow man. It's everyone for themselves there, and that's how they like it.
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Originally Posted by StuckInTexas
It's an endless circle that will never be solved for the simple fact that people themselves are flawed and wasteful.
This is a good spot to call for last comments before closing this thread.
There is no real answer to a question that is more rhetorical than objective. If I let it run any longer it's is certain to digress into national topics and will draw angry clouds of flies who want to rant (BTDT).
Thanks everyone for staying civil this long. I'll give it another day or two for last comments before I close it.
I'll entertain suggestions to move this to Politics and Other Controversies which has a certain "wild west atmosphere" for those who wish to duke it out on this topic.
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The people in the Springs who don't have children in school object to paying school taxes. The ones who don't ride the bus object to paying for the city bus system. The ones who don't read object to paying for the library district. The fundamentalists object to paying for ANYTHING because the Rapture will happen any day. Retired military object to public health spending and clinics for the low income because they have the VA. Ect., ect., ect., ect.
Colorado Springs is populated by various groups, all of whom are unwilling to let go of a single penny to help their fellow man. It's everyone for themselves there, and that's how they like it.
Sorry, but if you make statements like that, you'll have to back them up with facts if you want people to believe you.
The people in the Springs who don't have children in school object to paying school taxes.
Malarkey. D-20 is one of the best-funded districts in the state...those people you falsely claim object to paying school taxes have voted to put those funding levels where they are.
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Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler
The ones who don't ride the bus object to paying for the city bus system.
No, I object to a horribly underutilized city bus system that drives empty busses and won't charge the users fares commensurate with the costs of operating the bus system.
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Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler
The ones who don't read object to paying for the library district.
And again, no, the libraries are widely utilized and a function that requires some pooling of resources to be effective. If the libraries sat empty all day (like the busses), maybe, but again, the libraries are well-funded and well-used.
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Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler
Colorado Springs is populated by various groups, all of whom are unwilling to let go of a single penny to help their fellow man. It's everyone for themselves there, and that's how they like it.
Most of the people I know who object to taxpayer-funded socialism are FAR more generous with their money and their time than the donkeys braying about how selfish they think we are. Helping your fellow man is a different proposition than buying your fellow man the things he wants.
Yes, D20 seems well funded, but D49 has a long history of voting NO on bond issues to build schools. There's a thread on here about a mom who's furious at having to pay a lot for school bus services for her kids and says she's moving to D20.
BTW, I'm one of those who never put any kids in any school system and have always paid my property taxes to support them, without whining. When the girls from the local high school band boosters knock on my door each summer, I always let them twist my arm for a c-note.
There is more than a grain of truth to what Rambler says, she points out the hypocrisy that's rampant in our nation, i.e., spending for things "I" approve of is okay, but spending for things "YOU" approve of just a big waste and fraud.
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