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My Great-Grandfather (whom I never met) was a streetcar driver in Pueblo. When I acted surprised that Pueblo had public transit 100 years ago, she said all the towns had streetcars in those days... that's just how you got around.
To the OP: I, like most, find those mega churches unsavory as well. But, why would you need to feel pissed off every day by their mere presence? As long as you don't move in right next door, they, nor their members, should be no more obtrusive than the giant smokestacks in downtown.
Well, I heard that they are politicly involved and I always get pissed off when I see picket signs or bumper stickers against gay marriage and adoption. I know that those things will be in every city but I figure it would be more prevalent in a town that hosts two mega churches?
"Chemistry and Psychology majors. I would think that several schools offer advanced degrees in both areas. CU at Boulder, CSU at Ft. Collins. UNC at Greeley may not have advanced degrees in Chemistry but sure would in Psy. Those are public supported colleges. There are many Private schools scattered throughout the area also. Another visit at your parents house might be in order.
Then we drove through Colorado Springs and we both feel in love. But after doing some research, I am iffy about it.
You're created a dilemna for yourself that can be easily resolved by honestly answering this question: What's more real to you, after the fact research or your own feelings....based on your own experience?
I seriously doubt that any of the churches teach their congregations to be pissed off at other people, so you needn't worry about that.
Whats more real to me? Do you mean what is more important to me? That would be the research. I'm not going to commit to live in a city for at least a year just by driving through it. Research must be done to find out what kind of city it is. If the research turns up negative information then a new search must be done.
Your right. The churches don't teach their congregations to be pissed off at other people, they just teach their congregations to hate other people.
I think the concern over the conservative religious communities is Colorado Springs is exaggerated. They are not really that dominant as it is reported. I am a "born again" Atheist and I have been to the Springs, many times. Visited the Focus on the Family, gone to some church events--really only went to the events because they served some food. I always follow my stomach. They can preach all they want, as long as they feed me.
Ah, the people were nice and respectful and the woman were gorgeous--why is that a problem?? If they teach values that help them live good lives--I do not care what they believe.
The real problems in living in the Springs is Fort Carson, not so much the Air Force bases. Fort Carson is a grunt military base and part of that environment are some not so savory people. We need these people, we rely on them for our security and I honor them but some behavior of some of these people, not all, are dangerous. They draw recruits from some real hard core areas and ethnic poor in this country. Fort Carson attract prostitutes, gambling, pawn shops, bars, heavy drinking--all the bad attributes of a military post. That is the real danger of living in the Springs, not the Mega-Churches.
Now, to let you know, I am a Army Veteran. It was the same when I was in the Service--40 years ago. We need these type of aggressive and tough people but some of the young recruits are real bad people. Over time, many are weeded out and leave the Army but in a combat post, you are going to have more of these young miscreants.
So, before you come down on the churches, realize that many of these churches are a good balance in the Springs. They provide other avenues of entertainment and activities for the troops. They also lend support, which is needed, to the lonely families when their loved ones are deployed, and they are there to help when they morn a death.
I have fond memories of the Salvation Army and other Christian Groups that helped me when I was in the Army. Being Atheist does not mean, I do not recognize good Christian values and services, when I see it. Be careful in your attacks on these religious communities, that you do not "throw out the baby with the bath water".
The real problems in living in the Springs is Fort Carson, not so much the Air Force bases. Fort Carson is a grunt military base and part of that environment are some not so savory people. We need these people, we rely on them for our security and I honor them but some behavior of some of these people, not all, are dangerous. They draw recruits from some real hard core areas and ethnic poor in this country. Fort Carson attract prostitutes, gambling, pawn shops, bars, heavy drinking--all the bad attributes of a military post. That is the real danger of living in the Springs, not the Mega-Churches.
Now, to let you know, I am a Army Veteran. It was the same when I was in the Service--40 years ago. We need these type of aggressive and tough people but some of the young recruits are real bad people. Over time, many are weeded out and leave the Army but in a combat post, you are going to have more of these young miscreants.
Livecontent
I absolutely agree with your assessment, Livecontent. The biggest problem that Colorado Springs has--and has had for many years--is that it is essentially a ward of the biggest federal bureaucracy of all--the military. I find it especially hypocritical that the "hyper-conservatives" that one hears about in the Springs don't make a peep about all of the federal taxpayer largess dumped in their city by the military. They don't dare, because if the military ever seriously downsized in the Springs, half of the economy of the place would disappear overnight.
I have spend a fair amount of time in all of the Front Range metro areas of Colorado over the years. Sadly, some of the most unsavory (and criminal) behavior that I have personally witnessed in any of them occurred at the hands of some "miscreant"--as you put it so well--Army people in Colorado Springs. I have great admiration and respect for our American military as a whole, but there are definitely some "bad apples" in that barrel; and when they "act out," they often do so very badly. And when one has a "mega" military base like Fort Carson in a town, it happens far too frequently.
I think the concern over the conservative religious communities is Colorado Springs is exaggerated. They are not really that dominant as it is reported. I am a "born again" Atheist and I have been to the Springs, many times. Visited the Focus on the Family, gone to some church events--really only went to the events because they served some food. I always follow my stomach. They can preach all they want, as long as they feed me.
Ah, the people were nice and respectful and the woman were gorgeous--why is that a problem?? If they teach values that help them live good lives--I do not care what they believe.
The real problems in living in the Springs is Fort Carson, not so much the Air Force bases. Fort Carson is a grunt military base and part of that environment are some not so savory people. We need these people, we rely on them for our security and I honor them but some behavior of some of these people, not all, are dangerous. They draw recruits from some real hard core areas and ethnic poor in this country. Fort Carson attract prostitutes, gambling, pawn shops, bars, heavy drinking--all the bad attributes of a military post. That is the real danger of living in the Springs, not the Mega-Churches.
Now, to let you know, I am a Army Veteran. It was the same when I was in the Service--40 years ago. We need these type of aggressive and tough people but some of the young recruits are real bad people. Over time, many are weeded out and leave the Army but in a combat post, you are going to have more of these young miscreants.
So, before you come down on the churches, realize that many of these churches are a good balance in the Springs. They provide other avenues of entertainment and activities for the troops. They also lend support, which is needed, to the lonely families when their loved ones are deployed, and they are there to help when they morn a death.
I have fond memories of the Salvation Army and other Christian Groups that helped me when I was in the Army. Being Atheist does not mean, I do not recognize good Christian values and services, when I see it. Be careful in your attacks on these religious communities, that you do not "throw out the baby with the bath water".
Livecontent
I understand that churches do help communities and teach some good values. My problem is when they infringe upon other peoples lives. Major examples being homosexual marriage and adoption. I can ignore the people knocking on my door but when you get millions of people to stop other people from living their happily ever after...that is a problem. I understand that there are a few atheists who are against these things but Christianity spreads the hate like a wild fire. I can almost guarantee you that a lot of the people who vote no to gay marriage are doing so because "god" says that it is a sin and if they had never heard that before, they would vote the other way.
I understand that churches do help communities and teach some good values. My problem is when they infringe upon other peoples lives. Major examples being homosexual marriage and adoption. I can ignore the people knocking on my door but when you get millions of people to stop other people from living their happily ever after...that is a problem. I understand that there are a few atheists who are against these things but Christianity spreads the hate like a wild fire. I can almost guarantee you that a lot of the people who vote no to gay marriage are doing so because "god" says that it is a sin and if they had never heard that before, they would vote the other way.
I never said I was against Gays...you are making assumptions because I, as an atheist, seem to be defending religion. Is not that the "sin" of Christians who assume being gay is being a bad person. Well, you are wrong; I support gay rights. An Atheist is like many other groups--we come in different shades and I try to view people and the world with humanistic values without religious dogmas.
Actually, if you would rub the haze off your spectacles, you will see that my comments were to point out the real threats in living in the Springs is from the Army post. You concerns about the religious influence in the Springs are obsessively exaggerated.
I never said I was against Gays...you are making assumptions because I, as an atheist, seem to be defending religion. Is not that the "sin" of Christians who assume being gay is being a bad person. Well, you are wrong; I support gay rights. An Atheist is like many other groups--we come in different shades and I try to view people and the world with humanistic values without religious dogmas.
Actually, if you would rub the haze off your spectacles, you will see that my comments were to point out the real threats in living in the Springs is from the Army post. You concerns about the religious influence in the Springs are obsessively exaggerated.
Livecontent
I never assumed anything. I never implied that you do not support gay marriage. I simply stated that some atheists don't support it because if I had left that out and only spoke about christians, I would have been asking for someone to say something about atheists.
I hope that made sense. Its almost 1am here.
I understand that churches do help communities and teach some good values. My problem is when they infringe upon other peoples lives. Major examples being homosexual marriage and adoption. I can ignore the people knocking on my door but when you get millions of people to stop other people from living their happily ever after...that is a problem. I understand that there are a few atheists who are against these things but Christianity spreads the hate like a wild fire. I can almost guarantee you that a lot of the people who vote no to gay marriage are doing so because "god" says that it is a sin and if they had never heard that before, they would vote the other way.
Oh I don't think they are infringing on people's lives by being against abortion or gay marriage, both of which are not biblical.
They are just as entitled to their views or vote as any other citizen. They also have the right to voice that opinion as well.
For our country to survive there has to be some moral code, some line in a sand. Using the same thinking you do, some pedophiles would say their rights to molest children is being infringed upon.
Christians get tarred and feathered when it comes to the word "hate". Those who don't share our values or beliefs see us as "hating" people if we don't sign up for gay marriage or abortion. That belief fostered by the left wing media could not be farther from the truth. I and other Christians I know, all know gay people but we don't hate them. We might disagree with their morals, but we don't hate them. That is between them and God.
Oh I don't think they are infringing on people's lives by being against abortion or gay marriage, both of which are not biblical.
They are just as entitled to their views or vote as any other citizen. They also have the right to voice that opinion as well.
For our country to survive there has to be some moral code, some line in a sand. Using the same thinking you do, some pedophiles would say their rights to molest children is being infringed upon.
Christians get tarred and feathered when it comes to the word "hate". Those who don't share our values or beliefs see us as "hating" people if we don't sign up for gay marriage or abortion. That belief fostered by the left wing media could not be farther from the truth. I and other Christians I know, all know gay people but we don't hate them. We might disagree with their morals, but we don't hate them. That is between them and God.
As an Atheist, I have to agree with you on that you have the right to your beliefs. I do have problems with many religions that change quickly their code of beliefs to satisfy every whim and fantasy of the current view of the populace. I believe if those are the beliefs of a religious group then they should stand by them and not change them too readily to accommodate current fades or to attract new members.
It is when these beliefs infringe on other groups and history has shown us, it can be violent and deadly to allow religion to dominate the public voice. However, you are correct, there has to be codes of conduct that are inviolate and these codes can and should be developed by consensus over time.
These codes should also not be change quickly or easily to satisfy every current whim. There is nothing wrong with public code of conducts that eminent from religious thoughts in the past, as religious beliefs are part of our heritage and intertwined in our moral codes. However, as time goes on, we will all come to the realization that all morality and codes of conduct eminent truly from the consciousness of man alone; and the creation of "gods" was only our own reflection, that satisfied a need for a past age.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 10-21-2009 at 01:41 AM..
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