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You're looking at the 2010 ranking for libraries which meant that was when Columbus Library funding was at it's lowest for the past 20 years. And they still ranked second which was amazing.
You can't pick and choose your years if you're trying to make a valid point.
Dude... stop. Why don't you post 2013 rankings then? And why don't you also cite the library's funding as well? Those were the most recent I found, I'm not picking and choosing.
I even said 2 was good. Stop putting words in my mouth.
But I'm also saying that Cleveland was 1 (better than 2). But even still, I questioned the usefulness of these ratings. I have never read a ranking list that was based on substantive things. Then I even said that all in all, libraries aren't quite as vital as public transportation anyway, which Cbus sorely lacks in most areas. No?
If you're gonna start a debate, make it worth debating.
It's not about how many parks there are, it's how good the parks are (which is admittedly subjective). Doesn't really have to do with geography necessarily. Not to be a Cbus-basher and Cleveland booster, but Cleveland is not a top taxed city and has cheaper rent AND has the number 1 library system (Library Name, though 2 certainly isn't bad, BUT how exactly are these rankings made?) and I'd take the Emerald Necklace over anything in Columbus, park wise.
I'm not saying it's bad, but I still think you pay a lot of taxes and don't get enough in Columbus, most importantly, in my opinion, with public transit.
Taxes are ridiculous in Boston with MUCH higher rents than anywhere in Ohio. I am totally getting ripped off here. Overall, I agree with you, Cbus is a better deal than where I live.
Sorry, not to be a basher, as you say, but Columbus is in infinitely better shape infrastructure-wise and economically than Cleveland right now. And it's violent crime rate is half what it is in Cleveland with 2x the population, so clearly taxes are doing some good. Columbus has great, well-kept parks. The Big Darby watershed is one of the most pristine, diverse waterways in the nation, and that's not baseless hyperbole.
And let's be honest, there is a reason Cleveland is a cheaper place to live, and it's not a net positive.
Boston is a world-class city. We need to get rid of this idea that such things can exist with perpetually low taxes on everything while magical gnomes build roads, amenities, provide protection, etc.
Your first paragraph is non sequiter. I made no mention of suburban benefits in my post to which you replied. My point was, many if not most of the individuals subject to the Columbus City income tax hike reside in surrounding bedroom communities but have the misfortune of working in Columbus. The residents of Columbus, which if they are employed are the minority of tax payers in the city, decided to raise taxes on those folks that work in Columbus yet have no say on the matter because they live outside city limits.
Furthermore, most suburbs have already worked through whatever reductions in tax revenue that resulted from the Great Recession. In fact tax revenue is on the rise compared to the 2009 nadir in most communities across the state and Central Ohio municipalities in particular. In addition, property values have little bearing on Ohio municipalities and their budgets. Sure, school districts are feeling the squeeze from reduced property taxes after Central Ohio counties reassessed property values lower a couple of years back but the overwhelming majority of municipal general fund revenue is derived from income taxes, state aid, and various fees and fines. It is a common misconception that your local city hall is the force behind rising property taxes. That blame falls primarily on school districts and their associated levies. Little if any county property tax is kicked back to the cities that make up the Columbus MSA.
So again, if the suburbs are so awesome, they should be able to provide jobs for all their residents so they don't have to pay Columbus taxes, right? But they can't do that, can they, so I wonder how all those suburbanites would actually make it to their jobs in the city without the roads, buses, etc. that those city taxes help provide. Or for police protection so they're not mugged or murdered when they arrive. Or the city garages and parking lots for them to park safely all day. You act like all those people do not benefit from what they pay and they're just hapless victims.
I imagine it's not hard to actually have revenues rise from the bottom of the worst economic downturn in 80 years. Hey, I hear the housing market is recovering some too! In any case, you missed my point. The current trends are going away from the suburban boom that has existed for 50+ years. That's one of the reasons you're seeing apartment construction boom while single-family housing is still languishing. And it's not just what is being built, but where. Urban cores of cities across the country are seeing more revitalization and redevelopment collectively than at any time since the city peak around 1950. Younger generations are no longer entirely consumed with the "American Dream" of McMansion living based on an auto-centric lifestyle. There are generational changes occurring now that will create issues with suburban cities that do not adapt, and in some cases, even if they do. For example, if younger generations no longer want to live in the suburbs in majority numbers, and the aging Baby Boomers who already live there start dying off or trading down to less maintanance-intensive living (such as an apartment), who is going to replace those residents? Who is going to provide the next wave of construction that suburban areas have taken for granted for so many years and have come to depend on for their growth?
You're looking at the 2010 ranking for libraries which meant that was when Columbus Library funding was at it's lowest for the past 20 years. And they still ranked second which was amazing.
You can't pick and choose your years if you're trying to make a valid point.
Since 1999 on that link, Columbus has been #1 3 times, 1999, 2005 and 2008. It was either #2 or #3 in all other years except 2004, when it was #4. The point is that, whatever the rankings say, CML is clearly one of the highest rated library systems in the country.
Sorry, not to be a basher, as you say, but Columbus is in infinitely better shape infrastructure-wise and economically than Cleveland right now. And it's violent crime rate is half what it is in Cleveland with 2x the population, so clearly taxes are doing some good. Columbus has great, well-kept parks. The Big Darby watershed is one of the most pristine, diverse waterways in the nation, and that's not baseless hyperbole.
And let's be honest, there is a reason Cleveland is a cheaper place to live, and it's not a net positive.
Boston is a world-class city. We need to get rid of this idea that such things can exist with perpetually low taxes on everything while magical gnomes build roads, amenities, provide protection, etc.
You may recall a few years back how much of an advocate that I was for Columbus, I was a resident
there in 2009 - 2010. Today, I still advocate for Columbus because there is much to celebrate in Ohio's
capitol city, however ...
I definitely want to speak on several points in your aforementioned statement where it regards Cleveland
and Columbus. There was a period of time when Cleveland was in a continual downward spiral, one of
the reasons that I moved away to Columbus in '09.
Flash forward to 2013 - CLEVELAND has ( and still is ) making enormous leaps and bounds with a
huge turnaround in fortunes ...
I would NOT say that Columbus has a better job market or economy than in Cleveland ... 3 years ago
that would certainly have been true, but that is not the case now.
Cleveland is undergoing over $9 BILLION in NEW DEVELOPMENT, REDEVELOPMENT & MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS ... THERE'S NOTHING THAT COMES CLOSE TO COMPARISON
ANYWHERE IN COLUMBUS.
Columbus has seen success with the new Columbus Commons Park, then there's the latest addition to the Scioto Mile project at Bicentennial Park in downtown ... but NOTHING on the scale of what's happening in Cleveland.
In Cleveland, of the $9 BILLION in investments & construction $3 BILLION of that is transforming
our downtown district. Cleveland now has the largest downtown residential population of any of Ohio's
3 largest cities ( CLE, COL & CINCY ) and the growth continues exponentially. Rental occupancy exceeds
a whopping 98% in downtown alone - the demand for housing is so pent up that there are WAITING LISTS
YEARS IN ADVANCE for all of the downtown properties. As a result, developers are snatching up vacated skyscrapers and other buildings for total re-purposement and renovation as market rate luxury lofts and condos.
The new "Cleveland Center for Global Health Innovations" ( Med Mart ) and the brand new convention center are slated to open in just a few months. The Flats East development is an enormous project that
will bring new life and vitality back to the historic flats district - this project includes a massive new
office tower on the skyline ( almost completed ), residential condos, apartments, nightclubs, unique restaurants, a new boardwalk and beach front area.
The Horseshoe Casino has been an astounding success since opening in May 2012 - it continues to be the highest earning and most popular of all casinos in Ohio - continually besting the casinos in Columbus, Cincinnati and Toledo.
There are also a number of new luxury brand hotels coming on line in and near downtown including:
Aloft, Westin, Crowne Plaza, Sheraton and at least four others.
University Circle, already the epicenter of world class arts and healthcare in Ohio continues to see
major progress with the recent opening of the stunning MOCA CLEVELAND ( Museum of Contemporary Art ) and the second phase of Uptown Cleveland.
There are major enhancements, additions and improvements being made at the downtown campus of
Cleveland State University that are in the tens of millions range.
As for INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS - Work continues on the massive, new INNERBELT BRIDGE PROJECT, it's the largest state funded construction project in Ohio history. Many roadways and freeways are seeing construction and repairs also.
Lastly, I agree that Cleveland's vast, inviting and gorgeous "Emerald Necklace" ( The Cleveland Metroparks system ) is light years ahead of ANY PARK TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE in the Columbus metro area. In Cleveland you have canyons, small mountains, high ridges, scenic and forested gorges, waterfalls and of course, beautiful Lake Erie. There's also the incredibly beautiful CUYAHOGA VALLEY NATIONAL PARK located on the southern tier of the Cleveland metro.
Columbus is mostly flat, it has a far less inviting or inspiring landscape ( topography ) than what exists in Cleveland.
I'm not putting down Columbus at all, it was my home for a year and during that period I grew quite
fond of its many attributes, but to say it's above Cleveland regarding topics like economy, infrastructure and amenities is going a bit too far.
For the latest scoop on all of the MAJOR PROGRESS in Cleveland, check out this constantly evolving
thread:
You may recall a few years back how much of an advocate that I was for Columbus, I was a resident
there in 2009 - 2010. Today, I still advocate for Columbus because there is much to celebrate in Ohio's
capitol city, however ...
I definitely want to speak on several points in your aforementioned statement where it regards Cleveland
and Columbus. There was a period of time when Cleveland was in a continual downward spiral, one of
the reasons that I moved away to Columbus in '09.
Flash forward to 2013 - CLEVELAND has ( and still is ) making enormous leaps and bounds with a
huge turnaround in fortunes ...
I would NOT say that Columbus has a better job market or economy than in Cleveland ... 3 years ago
that would certainly have been true, but that is not the case now.
Cleveland is undergoing over $9 BILLION in NEW DEVELOPMENT, REDEVELOPMENT & MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS ... THERE'S NOTHING THAT COMES CLOSE TO COMPARISON
ANYWHERE IN COLUMBUS.
Columbus has seen success with the new Columbus Commons Park, then there's the latest addition to the Scioto Mile project at Bicentennial Park in downtown ... but NOTHING on the scale of what's happening in Cleveland.
In Cleveland, of the $9 BILLION in investments & construction $3 BILLION of that is transforming
our downtown district. Cleveland now has the largest downtown residential population of any of Ohio's
3 largest cities ( CLE, COL & CINCY ) and the growth continues exponentially. Rental occupancy exceeds
a whopping 98% in downtown alone - the demand for housing is so pent up that there are WAITING LISTS
YEARS IN ADVANCE for all of the downtown properties. As a result, developers are snatching up vacated skyscrapers and other buildings for total re-purposement and renovation as market rate luxury lofts and condos.
The new "Cleveland Center for Global Health Innovations" ( Med Mart ) and the brand new convention center are slated to open in just a few months. The Flats East development is an enormous project that
will bring new life and vitality back to the historic flats district - this project includes a massive new
office tower on the skyline ( almost completed ), residential condos, apartments, nightclubs, unique restaurants, a new boardwalk and beach front area.
The Horseshoe Casino has been an astounding success since opening in May 2012 - it continues to be the highest earning and most popular of all casinos in Ohio - continually besting the casinos in Columbus, Cincinnati and Toledo.
There are also a number of new luxury brand hotels coming on line in and near downtown including:
Aloft, Westin, Crowne Plaza, Sheraton and at least four others.
University Circle, already the epicenter of world class arts and healthcare in Ohio continues to see
major progress with the recent opening of the stunning MOCA CLEVELAND ( Museum of Contemporary Art ) and the second phase of Uptown Cleveland.
There are major enhancements, additions and improvements being made at the downtown campus of
Cleveland State University that are in the tens of millions range.
As for INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS - Work continues on the massive, new INNERBELT BRIDGE PROJECT, it's the largest state funded construction project in Ohio history. Many roadways and freeways are seeing construction and repairs also.
Lastly, I agree that Cleveland's vast, inviting and gorgeous "Emerald Necklace" ( The Cleveland Metroparks system ) is light years ahead of ANY PARK TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE in the Columbus metro area. In Cleveland you have canyons, small mountains, high ridges, scenic and forested gorges, waterfalls and of course, beautiful Lake Erie. There's also the incredibly beautiful CUYAHOGA VALLEY NATIONAL PARK located on the southern tier of the Cleveland metro.
Columbus is mostly flat, it has a far less inviting or inspiring landscape ( topography ) than what exists in Cleveland.
I'm not putting down Columbus at all, it was my home for a year and during that period I grew quite
fond of its many attributes, but to say it's above Cleveland regarding topics like economy, infrastructure and amenities is going a bit too far.
For the latest scoop on all of the MAJOR PROGRESS in Cleveland, check out this constantly evolving
thread:
First, I have made mention of Cleveland's improvements quite a bit across this forum. I have even said that I think it has the most momentum right now with new development in its downtown area. That said, there are few projects in Cleveland that do not have similar counterparts in Columbus. The main difference is that Cleveland has a few large, signature projects while Columbus' development projects are mostly of a different scope and quantity.
Columbus does have a better job market. It has lower unemployment, has fully recovered its recession jobs losses and has had more job growth during and after the recession. It also has a more diverse economy overall. Cleveland has a larger GMP, but Columbus is clearly healthier. The numbers just support that.
I made a development project list last year, and there were also billions in development going on in Columbus. So does Cincinnati for that matter. Cleveland is not unique in this as it's a national trend.
Cleveland always had the highest downtown population. That never stopped being true.
Columbus also has over 98% occupancy in downtown residential and is seeing thousands of residential units under construction or in planning in the area.
Columbus just built a new Hilton, and almost every downtown hotel has recently completed a renovation or is in the process of doing so... and they're the same brands. Columbus is also getting a Le Meridien hotel just north of the convention center in the Short North.
The CMOA (art museum) has also been going through major expansions and renovations.
Ohio State is building a $1.1 billion hospital, and is spending another half billion on residential construction and renovation, not to mention the tens of millions on other new buildings and renovations. There are very few universities anywhere that can compete with Ohio State when it comes to development.
670-71-70 is getting rebuilt through Columbus, a $1.6 billion project. The city will also be getting rebuilds at 270/23, 33/270 (both in Dublin and the South Side). 270/70 down to Broad Street is completing a rebuild as well. However, since I'm not a big road supporter, I tend to think all of this is a huge waste of money.
I wouldn't exactly be touting anything casino-related anywhere. Increasing competition is already hurting surrounding states and revenues in Ohio will eventually level off or decline. Columbus maybe a bit less just because of growing population, but even there I would not expect significant growth for casino revenue. It makes me glad Columbus did not build it in the downtown.
Let's not forget also that Downtown is just one small part of an overall city. Cleveland's is improving. So is Columbus'. So is almost every city's. Outside of downtown and a few nearby areas, how well is Cleveland really doing? The 17% population loss the past decade was not in the downtown of Cleveland, but everywhere else. You can't just hype the downtown and ignore all the other significant problems that exist outside of it. I fully agree that Cleveland is improving, but there can be no serious argument against the overall city being in much worse shape than Columbus. Even if you think Cleveland has significantly more development going on, the fact is that they're starting from a weaker position due to 60 years of decline. It will take a long time to work that all out.
Sorry, but there are no mountains anywhere in Cleveland's parks, let alone anywhere in Ohio. Columbus' parks also have high ridges, waterfalls, forested gorges, etc. Lake Erie in most of the Cleveland area is not that pretty. It's an underutilized industrial area for the most part in Cleveland. The nicer areas are either northeast of there or west towards Sandusky. In any case, I've never been particularly enamored with geography as a vastly beneficial amenity. Where I live now, there are 17,000 ft mountains. Beyond making for a pretty picture on occasion, there is zero use for them in your day to day life, and 99% of the time you forget they're even there. I can't imagine how a few forested gorges outside of Cleveland makes all that much difference to the people who live in the city. At the end of the day, there is very little you can do or see in Cleveland's park system that you can't do or see in Columbus', regardless of how vastly different you feel the terrain is.
Economically, Columbus is much healthier than Cleveland. That is just not up for debate based on the numbers. Infrastructure seems to be at similar levels, imo, as far as the ability to get around in the available modes of transit. Amenities are subjective and judged by individual preferences.
Sorry, but there are no mountains anywhere in Cleveland's parks, let alone anywhere in Ohio. Columbus' parks also have high ridges, waterfalls, forested gorges, etc. Lake Erie in most of the Cleveland area is not that pretty. It's an underutilized industrial area for the most part in Cleveland. The nicer areas are either northeast of there or west towards Sandusky. In any case, I've never been particularly enamored with geography as a vastly beneficial amenity. Where I live now, there are 17,000 ft mountains. Beyond making for a pretty picture on occasion, there is zero use for them in your day to day life, and 99% of the time you forget they're even there. I can't imagine how a few forested gorges outside of Cleveland makes all that much difference to the people who live in the city. At the end of the day, there is very little you can do or see in Cleveland's park system that you can't do or see in Columbus', regardless of how vastly different you feel the terrain is.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this important portion of the above posting. The geography of
Cleveland and Columbus could not be more different.
The Cleveland metropolitan area ( known as the "forest city" for a good reason ) has a far more interesting geography than what exists in table top flat Columbus. Nowhere in the Columbus region are there any visible mountains or even slight hills. I discovered some impressive beauty within the Columbus city limits at a few ravines on the north side, most notably the Iuka Ravine near High st. The Hayden Run Falls up near Dublin was a surprisingly beautiful discovery of mine during my year in Columbus.
You say that there are no mountains in the Cleveland area? That would be an incorrect statement!
Glidersleeve Mountain and the nearby Little Mountain are two very prominent summits that are visible
from anywhere in Downtown Cleveland ( as long as a skyscraper isn't blocking your vantage point ).
Anywhere you drive east bound in the eastern portions of the city proper, or the eastern suburbs you
will most definitely notice forested hills and these two aforementioned peaks on the horizon.
Sure, these are not THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS of Colorado, technically; however, they are identifiable
mountains.
In Columbus, all you're going to see is flat lands in every direction. There are no visible hills in the Columbus metro - the closest would be an unusual peak in the center of Lancaster, and that is not in an identifiable portion of the Columbus metro area.
I recall neighbors of mine in Columbus just raving about going to visit the "Sharon Woods" metropark ...
I visited and was quite "underwhelmed" to say the very least. What I discovered were a few ponds surrounded by flat prairie ... the wildflowers were very pretty tho!
Cleveland has steep, deeply forested gorges, hills, valleys and very prominent ridges ... Again, no such
areas exist in Franklin county or Columbus.
Here's a view of Gildersleeve Mountain as viewed from Downtown Cleveland, a distance of over 20 miles
Image via Wikipedia Commons And ...
The view of Cleveland from Gildersleeve Mountain in a photo I snapped last Summer
You're not going to be afforded a similar panorama anywhere around Columbus because there are no
high elevations.
As for the rest of your arguments about Cleveland vs Columbus, they're to be expected. One thing that did bother me about life in Columbus was how so many had a ridiculously over inflated view of the city. In fact, while living there, I may have even given it more "props" than was warranted.
Last edited by JohnDBaumgardner; 03-13-2013 at 04:10 PM..
Glidersleeve Mountain and the nearby Little Mountain are two very prominent summits that are visible
from anywhere in Downtown Cleveland ( as long as a skyscraper isn't blocking your vantage point ).
Anywhere you drive east bound in the eastern portions of the city proper, or the eastern suburbs you
will most definitely notice forested hills and these two aforementioned peaks on the horizon.
In Columbus, all you're going to see is flat lands in every direction. There are no visible hills in the Columbus metro - the closest would be an unusual peak in the center of Lancaster, and that is not in an identifiable portion of the Columbus metro area.
As for the rest of your arguments about Cleveland vs Columbus, they're to be expected.
I guess when you've had no real experience with actual mountains, this is what passes for such. It's a prominent hill at best. What's ironic is that the photos show a fairly flat landscape.
Lancaster is in the Columbus metro. Since we've apparently jumped from city to entire metro, recent area changes to the metro included Hocking and Perry Counties, so the Hocking Hills are now in the Columbus metro. Plenty of hills there.
Facts are to be expected from me, you're right. Nice attempt at glossing over all of that, though.
I guess when you've had no real experience with actual mountains, this is what passes for such. It's a prominent hill at best. What's ironic is that the photos show a fairly flat landscape.
Lancaster is in the Columbus metro. Since we've apparently jumped from city to entire metro, recent area changes to the metro included Hocking and Perry Counties, so the Hocking Hills are now in the Columbus metro. Plenty of hills there.
Facts are to be expected from me, you're right. Nice attempt at glossing over all of that, though.
No glossing over of facts. I've backed up my post with FACTS and PHOTOS, something you will
be incapable of doing since there really isn't very dramatic or appealing terrain in Columbus.
SPEAKING OF "GLOSSING OVER THE FACTS" ....
Lancaster is NOT considered a suburb of Columbus, any metro area map of Columbus will prove this FACT.
I guess you thought you could slip this in? No way.
Me, no experience with REAL MOUNTAINS? Ummmm ... wrong again! I lived in California, Colorado and North Carolina, there were mountains a plenty in each of these states.
Why the animosity on your behalf, I'm curious ...
Facts are FACTS ... I've dis-proven your allegations that there are no mountains or hills in Cleveland.
Anybody who knows both Cleveland and Columbus intimately would be able to honestly discern
that there are monumental differences in the geography and terrain of each respective city.
You have a problem with the designation of "GILDERSLEEVE MOUNTAIN and LITTLE MOUNTAIN" because
these technical FACTS disallow your argument that "there are no mountains in Cleveland!" LMAO
In fact, these summits in Greater Cleveland are almost as high in elevation as Campbell Hill, Ohio's
highest elevation near Bellefontaine.
No glossing over of facts. I've backed up my post with FACTS and PHOTOS, something you will
be incapable of doing since there really isn't very dramatic or appealing terrain in Columbus.
Lancaster is NOT considered a suburb of Columbus, any metro area map of Columbus will prove this FACT.
Lancaster is now being included in the Columbus CSA ... NOT IN THE MSA!
Cleveland's east side has dramatically beautiful gorges, high ridges and yes, a few small MOUNTAINS.
Again, something you'll NOT find in Columbus or its suburbs!
Me, no experience with REAL MOUNTAINS? Ummmm ... wrong again! I lived in California, Colorado and North Carolina, there were mountains a plenty in each of these states.
Why the animosity on your behalf, I'm curious ...
Facts are FACTS ... I've dis-proven your allegations that there are no mountains or hills in Cleveland.
Anybody who knows both Cleveland and Columbus intimately would be able to honestly discern
that there are monumental differences in the geography and terrain of each respective city.
You have a problem with the designation of "GILDERSLEEVE MOUNTAIN and LITTLE MOUNTAIN" because
these technical FACTS disallow your argument that "there are no mountains in Cleveland!" LMAO
In fact, these summits in Greater Cleveland are almost as high in elevation as Campbell Hill, Ohio's
highest elevation near Bellefontaine.
You proved that Cleveland has a hill. Congratulations. Mountains? No, and if you really lived in those places you would never, ever confuse the two.
No, Lancaster is not a suburb, but you didn't say suburb, you said metro area. Fairfield County has long been in Columbus' metro, and Lancaster is the seat of Fairfield County. Check your maps again. BTW, Bellefontaine is now in Columbus' CSA.
What makes you think I have animosity? It's a lively discussion, but no animosity on my part.
In any case, this thread was about taxes. We should probably get back to that if you have anything to add on that aspect.
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