[New Englander]

Originally Posted by JayCT

Sorry but you will have to show me proof of your statement that the system was designed for a bigger city than Boston is now because I know that is not true. The connection between North and South Stations has been needed since the trains were built. The fact that it is not even in the foreseeable future is just atrocious. I realize that much of the transportation money in Massachusetts went to the Central Artery but that was completed 20 years ago. Time to move on. Jay

To add to Missionhill's excellent points, some evidence of population:

Boston Historical Population:Moderator cut: Link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Cambridge Historical Population: Cambridge, MA population

Not sure why you're harping on the North to South Station link? Would it be nice to have, sure -- however it's about as 'atrocious' as not having a Grand Central to Penn Station link. Or the fact that the original Penn Station was torn down.

When was the last time NYC completed a municipal work project that had the same relative impact as the Central Artery in Boston? It sure wasn't in the 90s. Boston's moved on -- the 2030 vision is much more comprehensive than anything else that NYC has offered. Remember NYC = 5 Boros not just the Island of Manhattan.

[missionhill]

Originally Posted by New Englander

Not sure why you're harping on the North to South Station link? Would it be nice to have, sure -- however it's about as 'atrocious' as not having a Grand Central to Penn Station link. Or the fact that the original Penn Station was torn down.

When was the last time NYC completed a municipal work project that had the same relative impact as the Central Artery in Boston? It sure wasn't in the 90s. Boston's moved on -- the 2030 vision is much more comprehensive than anything else that NYC has offered. Remember NYC = 5 Boros not just the Island of Manhattan.

Thanks for the shout out, New Englander! Like it or not, the Central Artery - Harbor Tunnel project was indeed huge and so was the Boston Harbor cleanup. New York at the same time was pushing Westway, which was a top-down, ill-conceived project that finally died by a thousand deaths through environmental impact review and litigation. The compromise is pretty good! A surface artery with lots of lights but also beautiful landscaping along the Hudson River and no destruction of the river habitat (Westway would have made landfill out to the pierhead line all the way up to 57th Street or so.) New York has bought more and newer subway cars in recent years but hasn't done anywhere near the amount of system capacity expansion that Boston has completed since 1980. Both Penn Station and Grand Central were gargantuan infrastructure projects-- the former involving extensive tunnels under Hudson and East rivers and under Manhattan Island and a huge bridge in addition to the station itself. Grand Central basically created Park Avenue as it is today with the tracks underneath and swank buildings lining the avenue above the tracks as far as 96th Street. All that was well over 100 years ago and by competing railroads with no incentive to connect the two stations. Philadelphia gets the prize in that regard with the Center City Commuter Connection, an underground link between the lines built by the Pennsylvania Railroad with stations at 30th St and Penn Center and the Reading system ending at Reading Terminal. The rail link in Boston is more pressing because without it Amtrak passengers traveling from, say, New Haven to Maine have to get off at South Station, find their way over to North Station and take another train from there.

[Henry10]

Originally Posted by New Englander

To add to Missionhill's excellent points, some evidence of population:

Boston Historical Population: Moderator cut: Link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Cambridge Historical Population: Cambridge, MA population

Not sure why you're harping on the North to South Station link? Would it be nice to have, sure -- however it's about as 'atrocious' as not having a Grand Central to Penn Station link. Or the fact that the original Penn Station was torn down.

When was the last time NYC completed a municipal work project that had the same relative impact as the Central Artery in Boston?

Come again?

Brand new 2nd Avenue subway line doesn't count? Or East Side Access, the largest transit project in the country?

https://www.theverge.com/2015/11/5/9...al-lirr-access

[Matrix2791]

Kind of wish we had a Boston size city here in CT(almost had that in the 80s with the proposed Hartford skyscrapers). Obviously were to small to have a NYC. But honestly I could care less about Boston and NYC.

[Stylo]

Originally Posted by Matrix2791

Kind of wish we had a Boston size city here in CT(almost had that in the 80s with the proposed Hartford skyscrapers). Obviously were to small to have a NYC. But honestly I could care less about Boston and NYC.

The Talk of Hartford - A Heated Race to Be New England's Tallest - NYTimes.com

[missionhill]

Nice archivel piece, Stylo. Not sure what fueled the development boom then. Were any of these buildings built? Seems to me Hartford had and has more than enough skyscrapers. The market didn't and doesn't justify building all that space. They've sucked the life out of the older buildings downtown with the result that many of them are now parking lots.

[New Englander]

Originally Posted by missionhill

Thanks for the shout out, New Englander! Like it or not, the Central Artery - Harbor Tunnel project was indeed huge and so was the Boston Harbor cleanup. New York at the same time was pushing Westway, which was a top-down, ill-conceived project that finally died by a thousand deaths through environmental impact review and litigation. The compromise is pretty good! A surface artery with lots of lights but also beautiful landscaping along the Hudson River and no destruction of the river habitat (Westway would have made landfill out to the pierhead line all the way up to 57th Street or so.) New York has bought more and newer subway cars in recent years but hasn't done anywhere near the amount of system capacity expansion that Boston has completed since 1980. Both Penn Station and Grand Central were gargantuan infrastructure projects-- the former involving extensive tunnels under Hudson and East rivers and under Manhattan Island and a huge bridge in addition to the station itself. Grand Central basically created Park Avenue as it is today with the tracks underneath and swank buildings lining the avenue above the tracks as far as 96th Street. All that was well over 100 years ago and by competing railroads with no incentive to connect the two stations. Philadelphia gets the prize in that regard with the Center City Commuter Connection, an underground link between the lines built by the Pennsylvania Railroad with stations at 30th St and Penn Center and the Reading system ending at Reading Terminal. The rail link in Boston is more pressing because without it Amtrak passengers traveling from, say, New Haven to Maine have to get off at South Station, find their way over to North Station and take another train from there.

Absolutely, Missionhill. In addition, the Central Artery/Boston Harbor cleanup had an out sized impact for the city, heck even the Metro Area.

I agree with you regarding Grand Central to Penn Station and North to South Station link. I see both linkages vital and helpful. However, the costs associated with both projects definitely means diverting limited resources to these identified priorities.

I would say that public transportation in NYC is the lifeblood of the economy, without systems in place to bring people into the City, allow them to move around efficiently, significant time/dollars is being wasted, it's bad for the environment etc.

I wasn't aware of the transit development in Philly. Definitely good to see that they were able to get the underground linkage completed.

This country needs to priority infrastructure, particularly mass transit and intercity travel.

[New Englander]

Originally Posted by Henry10

Come again?

Brand new 2nd Avenue subway line doesn't count? Or East Side Access, the largest transit project in the country?

https://www.theverge.com/2015/11/5/9...al-lirr-access

Nope, the 2nd Avenue doesn't count. If you look at the ridership stats vis-a-vis the other subway lines, you will see why. Even the impact studies for the 2nd avenue line showed that the transit link was serving an underserved area yet would have a limited economic impact. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of the 2nd Avenue subway or any transit related investments. Furthermore, the 2nd avenue access is a boon for people living in and traveling UES, however it would not have the same impact as the East Side Access.

Which leads me to the East Side Access: We can talk when the project is complete by December 2022 (based on your link). Since that article is from 2015, the completion timeline has already slipped to 2023 and who knows how much farther it will slip and funding priorities shift.

So, I stand by what I stated earlier.

[Wilton2ParkAve]

Why are we comparing Boston to NYC. I completely concede that many see Boston as a more liveable city but we are talking about a population that now trails El Paso. Not even top 20. Much (much) lower density.

[Matrix2791]

Originally Posted by Stylo

The Talk of Hartford - A Heated Race to Be New England's Tallest - NYTimes.com

Yeah I read that article awhile back. Definitely would of been nice to see those built.