[mlassoff]

Private schools, shopping malls, and any other privately owned organizations should be able to do whatever they please. They are private. My only beef is when publicly funded entities are supporting something overtly religious. If we can't be grown up and call it a holiday party out of respect to those with differing beliefs than my second choice would be no party. Party at home, party at church/synagogue, party in any damn place you want that isn't supported by tax dollars.

As for the percentages theory... Since Jews are the largest minority in NYC, I supposed, you would support public celebration of Jewish Holidays as opposed to Christian Holidays in that venue? No, of course not. It's easy to say that when you're in the majority that "majority rules" but it is very reductionistic to believe that majority rules is a sufficient solution.

[BagongBuhay]

What I find sad overall is that people spend so much precious energy splitting hairs over the interpretation of the constitution and the separation of church and state over the holidays year in year out. In another place, it's a war on candy canes as a pagan symbol. I think there are more productive things to focus on, but people never change.

[seymourct]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

. Party at home, party at church/synagogue, party in any damn place you want that isn't supported by tax dollars.

Again. Of and From are different words. No one ever said that you would not have religion in a public place, tax supported or not. Those trying to force the issue of total seperation are reading something into the words that just isn't there legally. You do not have freedom From being exposed to religion being around you in public places. You have the choice to believe whatever, and I am not saying what to believe.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by seymourct

Again. Of and From are different words. No one ever said that you would not have religion in a public place, tax supported or not. Those trying to force the issue of total seperation are reading something into the words that just isn't there legally. You do not have freedom From being exposed to religion being around you in public places. You have the choice to believe whatever, and I am not saying what to believe.

Obviously, as you point out, it is open to interpretation. Under your interpretation it would be fair game to have prayer led by a priest under a giant cross as a mandatory opening to public school each day. The courts have interpreted separation a bit more tightly than that.

Even leaving the constitutional argument out of it, isn't it the right thing to do? Wouldn't you prefer a community where we make allowances for everyone's belief and comfort instead of railroading the beliefs of the majority in to everyone's lives?

Again, imagine a community where the Jews outnumbered Christians-- (Oy!) Would you be amenable to celebrating Chanukah publicly reciting a prayer that was antithetical to your beliefs simply because there were more Jews around?

I think its reasonable that the government doesn't take a role in supporting any religion. Or more succinctly--- Your tax dollars don't support my Judaism, why should mine support your Christianity?

[brasscitybluenwhite]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Obviously, as you point out, it is open to interpretation. Under your interpretation it would be fair game to have prayer led by a priest under a giant cross as a mandatory opening to public school each day. The courts have interpreted separation a bit more tightly than that.

Even leaving the constitutional argument out of it, isn't it the right thing to do? Wouldn't you prefer a community where we make allowances for everyone's belief and comfort instead of railroading the beliefs of the majority in to everyone's lives?

Again, imagine a community where the Jews outnumbered Christians-- (Oy!) Would you be amenable to celebrating Chanukah publicly reciting a prayer that was antithetical to your beliefs simply because there were more Jews around?

I think its reasonable that the government doesn't take a role in supporting any religion. Or more succinctly--- Your tax dollars don't support my Judaism, why should mine support your Christianity?

Amen. And we should note that there has been no public complaint against the decision. The Teacher's Union hasn't complained publicly, nor has any student or teacher. All it is is another conservative trying to make an *ss of himself.

[seymourct]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Again, imagine a community where the Jews outnumbered Christians-- (Oy!) Would you be amenable to celebrating Chanukah publicly reciting a prayer that was antithetical to your beliefs simply because there were more Jews around?

No, I wouldn't mind because it is freedom OF religion. Not freedom FROM . As long as that group saying the prayer didn't get violent with the tiny number saying happy birthday baby boy, or happy kwanza, or rub a statue's belly, or have dreadlocks, etc. etc.

I have no more right than you, and you have no more right than me. You do not have the constitional right to be free from feeling a wee tiny bit uncomfortable. That is not an assault, how you feel in your head when you witness others. No one here is persecuting anyone. So light your candles. Bravo for your display. but when it just so happens that a bunch of folks want to string some lights on a tree. Don't fret it either way; they are just excercising their freedoms too.

[RiceCake]

Funny that I have moved from the most conservative region in the country (SE) to the most liberal (NE) and the arguments are really no different. It's one side always feeling singled out, "oppressed" by the historical (or growing) majority... and surprisingly intolerant to other opinions or interpretations.

Threads like this put me in the holiday spirit almost as much as Black Friday.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by seymourct

I have no more right than you, and you have no more right than me. You do not have the constitional right to be free from feeling a wee tiny bit uncomfortable. That is not an assault, how you feel in your head when you witness others. No one here is persecuting anyone. So light your candles. Bravo for your display. but when it just so happens that a bunch of folks want to string some lights on a tree. Don't fret it either way; they are just excercising their freedoms too.

They are exercising those freedoms if its THEIR tree. I agree with much of what you said. And again, when it comes to the private sector everything you said applies. However, the state, which represents us all, shouldn't (and many would argue is constitutionally prohibited from) putting Christmas lights in their trees or a menorah on their lawn. I am not suggesting any limitations on your freedom to celebrate and engage with the holiday in any way you wish. I hope you totally go to town-- dress as Santa, shop till you drop, drink egg-nog (which I can't personally understand), and participate in the Nativity Play at church.

However the government which represents us all, and which works for us all, should not be using public land for these celebrations. It's my city hall as much as its yours. It's my town green as much as it's yours. The school belongs to the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Taoist, Zoastrian, satanist and non-religious kids equally. These institutions also belongs to the Muslim guy who lives across the street and the atheist woman I work with. We can't possibly represent all these traditions on public land, so the only practical thing to do is in fairness and the interest of treating everyone equally (including those in a minority) is to be "religious" about separation of church and state.

Again, I don't think its much to ask that these parcels of land-- these buildings and institutions owned by us all-- create a spirit of equality instead of preference by celebrating some traditions and not others.

[seymourct]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

They are exercising those freedoms if its THEIR tree. I agree with much of what you said. And again, when it comes to the private sector everything you said applies. However, the state, which represents us all, shouldn't (and many would argue is constitutionally prohibited from) putting Christmas lights in their trees or a menorah on their lawn. I am not suggesting any limitations on your freedom to celebrate and engage with the holiday in any way you wish. I hope you totally go to town-- dress as Santa, shop till you drop, drink egg-nog (which I can't personally understand), and participate in the Nativity Play at church.

However the government which represents us all, and which works for us all, should not be using public land for these celebrations. It's my city hall as much as its yours. It's my town green as much as it's yours. The school belongs to the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Taoist, Zoastrian, satanist and non-religious kids equally. These institutions also belongs to the Muslim guy who lives across the street and the atheist woman I work with. We can't possibly represent all these traditions on public land, so the only practical thing to do is in fairness and the interest of treating everyone equally (including those in a minority) is to be "religious" about separation of church and state.

Again, I don't think its much to ask that these parcels of land-- these buildings and institutions owned by us all-- create a spirit of equality instead of preference by celebrating some traditions and not others.

"If it's their tree", HA...you just proved my point. It is a public tree so it is their tree....etc. etc.

Yes every effort should be made to accomodate ALL the beliefs within each community.All beliefs.

Again and again it is Freedom of religion; Not Freedom from viewing others. Not all groups are represented in each city/or township.

So , I am tagging out. But feel free to be a self absorbed person who needs to have the last word.

Ciao

[mlassoff]

At the risk of seeming self-absorbed (huh!?!?), I have trouble believing you don't see a distinction between a tree on public land which is 'owned' by all of us and a tree that is your private property. Really? That's the argument?

I do know that its very hard to see the other side on this issue. If you're not a member of a religious minority, its difficult to know what it feels like to be one. On issues where I am in the majority, I try not to have a "too bad... tough luck attitude" and am thankful for those who feel the same when I am in the minority!

As I say this, I am trying to decide what Christmas gifts to buy for my non-Jewish niece. Go figure...