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You don't seem to know much about guns and are uncomfortable with them. CCW carriers are not allowed to carry in a bar where there is alcohol for the very reason you mentioned. Secondly, I live in an open carry state and occasionally do see some carrying on their side. There is no reason to fear these people (as you described feeling the need to tackle them), in fact, you will probably be more safe in a location along side these people since criminals are less likely to act. Do you really think a criminal is going to try to rob a store when there is someone carrying a gun?
Regardless, in a situation like this, where there was a crazed criminal killing someone, and could've possibly then moved on to other passengers, if you feel better that no other people on that car were armed for protection, than that is on you. I'd much rather know I could defend myself if needed to at least stand a chance. I'm not going down without a fight.
You're putting a lot of blind faith in trusting people you don't know. You also probably live in a relatively homogenous area. See how people respond in New York City if they see someone they don't know with a gun. That person acting so irresponsibly better hope getting tackled is all that happens.
In DC many people linked to military and law enforcement conceal carry when off duty and I know first hand they sometimes bring those guns in bars.
Anyway, you're trying to bring this out to a philosophical discussion. My only point was to question the practicality of a gun in that situation on a subway.
Given your passion for the subject, I assume a big difference is that guns are a lifestyle for you. You're willing to put the time in on weekends, evenings, to get comfortable using it in all situations, including hostile assault. That takes a lot of training. A vast majority of people, particularly young professionals like this guy, who live in an urban environment prioritize other activities and are therefore not mentally equipped to handle a gun beyond perhaps a shooting range.
Also, a number of the other passengers appear to have been older, which is a factor in response and such when engaging an 18 year old.
If only one of them had been carrying a gun.......it would have been over. This is sick and sad! I support CCW for this very reason.
ironically, it's highly doubtful the victim would have been a CCW advocate:
Quote:
Palak Gosar said Sutherland, a Connecticut native, loved advocating for progressive causes. “He never shied away from a fight, especially when it came to what he believed in.”
Black or white? Skin color is irrelevant, and anyone from any walk of life that does this IMO is less civilized than a baboon! In fact, to refer to this POS as a baboon is an insult to baboons everywhere!
Yeah, yeah. You're not the poster I was responding to so you can't speak for his intentions.
Help me understand your mindset on this. I use guns periodically and, at first blush, it makes sense but the odds of a guy like the victim of the attack carrying a gun, even if he were allowed to, are pretty minimal. Gun culture just isn't a high priority of the young professional urban set.
Speaking for myself, without devoting a lot of time to training to use it in an array of situations (not just shooting at a target), I would be very uncomfortable bringing a gun into a situation like that where I am being assaulted because it can easily get turned against the victim. The odds such an individual would have the wherewithal to access and use a gun effectively in a situation like that is pretty minimal. No doubt that victim was hurt or compromised in some way very early in that surprise attack.
Given the mindset of the assailant, the odds of that gun - once it's revealed - ending up in the hands of the cold-blooded murderer and terrorizing more people is incredibly high. And the same issues hold true for any of the other passengers on the car, who will no doubt live the rest of their lives with questions and guilt about whether they could have done more. Many people involved in the military and law enforcement carry concealed guns when they're off-duty in DC, but as a general rule in a dense city like that the idea of having non-professionals carrying guns in nightlife districts and tight quarters is something the population at large just is not comfortable with. Very few nonprofessionals in an urban environment spend enough time with guns in close combat situations to know how to handle it well and not have it used against them or others.
Not disagreeing with what you said, but an even more important factor is how the victim would be treated if he did manage to pull off a shot and take down his attacker.
Any white-on-black shooting is instantly investigated as a racial incident by the current President and the Department of Justice.
You can't even say anything publicly about a black attacker, if you're white. It's a poisonous atmosphere and your best bet is, if there are witnesses, try to fend the guy off and just run away if possible. Otherwise, just don't defend yourself, and then you are safe from future prosecution.
As for the baboon comment, yes I agree that it's insulting to baboons. Most animals other than humans don't kill for sport.
Not disagreeing with what you said, but an even more important factor is how the victim would be treated if he did manage to pull off a shot and take down his attacker.
Any white-on-black shooting is instantly investigated as a racial incident by the current President and the Department of Justice.
You can't even say anything publicly about a black attacker, if you're white. It's a poisonous atmosphere and your best bet is, if there are witnesses, try to fend the guy off and just run away if possible. Otherwise, just don't defend yourself, and then you are safe from future prosecution.
As for the baboon comment, yes I agree that it's insulting to baboons. Most animals other than humans don't kill for sport.
Well, I'm trying to think of situations outside of police or that dubious Zimmerman situation where that happened. I'm sure there are examples of outcry, I just don't know them.
Either way, I'm not sure that would hold true in DC. People have a more nuanced relationship with crime and race in DC than the national conversation in which bleeding heart liberals portray every black person as a victim and rural conservatives portray every black person as a menace.
In DC, people see the upper middle class, middle, working and even low income classes of black folk functioning fine and peaceably. They also see the crime (much reduced as it is) and who commits almost all of it, which is overwhelmingly low income black teenagers and young men. Sad but true.
I'm not sure there would be much debate over self-defense in a situation like that, particularly with witnesses. Though, by the time it got to him being stabbed dozens of time (Christ...) to know the extent of the brutality, it was probably too late for the guy to pull a hypothetical gun. Shooting a guy just trying to steal your phone early in the exchange might get some backlash.
I recall one video that went viral of a group of teenagers attacking a middle age office worker in the Metro. That dude went ballistic on them and no one complained.
i was on the same metro line earlier on july 4th. i think the t-word can be appropriately used here for this vicious thug attack.
Police and a witness interviewed said passengers trapped in the moving train huddled at both ends of the car and watched in horror as Spires punched 24-year-old Kevin Joseph Sutherland until he fell to the floor, then stabbed him until he was dead. Court documents say the victim was cut or stabbed 30 or 40 times, in the chest, abdomen, back, side and arms. Police said the assailant then threw the victim’s cellphone and returned to stomp on Sutherland’s body.
Absolutely terrifying. That poor man was brutally murdered by a subhuman thug who would have done that to anyone. I'm glad he's been caught.
I don't want to ever be in the situation where I would fear for my life so much that I would carry a gun with me. Perhaps if someone had mace with them, they could have used it on the murderer. I don't know, in such a public and enclosed space, when something like this happens, you just don't know what to do.
i was on the same metro line earlier on july 4th. i think the t-word can be appropriately used here for this vicious thug attack.
Police and a witness interviewed said passengers trapped in the moving train huddled at both ends of the car and watched in horror as Spires punched 24-year-old Kevin Joseph Sutherland until he fell to the floor, then stabbed him until he was dead. Court documents say the victim was cut or stabbed 30 or 40 times, in the chest, abdomen, back, side and arms. Police said the assailant then threw the victim’s cellphone and returned to stomp on Sutherland’s body.
The problem with mace is on drug influenced perps it has little effect depending on their size.
I have trained several people to shoot, and I can trust them in a fire fight.
If the culture in this country ever matures ,gun training should be SOP not only for adults but for kids in school as well Good training inspires good handling and respect for a tool .
Fear does nothing but make matters worse, every time .
The rule in a knife fight is, no one wins.
I have seen cops cut up severely because some perp took them on with a knife and almost killed them the cop could not draw his gun fast enough.
Its called a 21 foot rule.
A perp with a knife can reach a trained cop with in 21 feet before the cop can draw his weapon .
You cant even draw your cell phone that fast, much less make a call and get a response. And all any one at the other end is going to do is take a message, and listen to the gurgle of our throat cut.
Personally I believe in taking personal responsibility in my own security, and teach others the same.
Those choosing to be the victim, are the enablers to the criminal element. Plain and simple.
First and foremost, my condolences to the young man who was killed. I also pray that young assailant finds Jesus Christ and turns from his ways.
Having said that, things like this will probably really damage any progress that has been made on getting Americans to embrace public transport. Anyone agree?
Having said that, things like this will probably really damage any progress that has been made on getting Americans to embrace public transport. Anyone agree?
No, I don't agree. I fully embrace & support public transport. For 10 years I used the bus every single day for work. Now with my new position I unfortunately have to drive all over the city. It's the pits & I really miss using the bus & keeping my car at home. The likelihood of an attack while using public transit is extremely low, regardless of any stories you hear. I would never sway someone away from utilizing public transit.
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