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1 - A library is a PUBLIC place. DD is not. It's private property. Two VERY different types of establishments.
2 - What happens if you drop a book, startle the person and they get a heart attack? Most homeless people are not healthy, and sudden fear can cause a myriad of issues leading to death. You making loud noises to startle people into waking up is FAR MORE dangerous than dumping water on them. Heart attacks, seizures, etc.
Try again.
I realize you have a particular point of view here. A point of view that most of us don't seem to share.
Public place or not, the principle of trespassing is the same. When its time to close, the public library or public whatever has the same rights that a private establishment has to require patrons to leave. Gizmo described intelligent ways to get the attention of sleeping patrons. The library uses methods that actually require some thought instead of brute force.
The notion that one should have to worry about causing someone a heart attack by dropping book near them.....well its one of the dumbest things I've read on CDF for awhile and I read some pretty dumb things. It is not likely or even a distinct possibility that dropping a book near someone will cause a patron to suffer a heart attack. On the other hand, dumping a pitcher of ice water on them will make them soaking wet.
We know you think this business didn't do anything wrong. Its just if you put this to a majority vote you are going to lose because most people have some sense of decency.
I realize you have a particular point of view here. A point of view that most of us don't seem to share.
Public place or not, the principle of trespassing is the same. When its time to close, the public library or public whatever has the same rights that a private establishment has to require patrons to leave. Gizmo described intelligent ways to get the attention of sleeping patrons. The library uses methods that actually require some thought instead of brute force.
The notion that one should have to worry about causing someone a heart attack by dropping book near them.....well its one of the dumbest things I've read on CDF for awhile and I read some pretty dumb things. It is not likely or even a distinct possibility that dropping a book near someone will cause a patron to suffer a heart attack. On the other hand, dumping a pitcher of ice water on them will make them soaking wet.
We know you think this business didn't do anything wrong. Its just if you put this to a majority vote you are going to lose because most people have some sense of decency.
When of where did I ever say/imply this?
I've posted NUMEROUS times that both parties were in the wrong.
Also, don't be so quick to call something "dumb," especially when it is clear that you know absolutely nothing about the issue. Yes, it is VERY possible to cause someone with medical conditions to suffer a heart attack or seizure by making sudden loud noises to startle them into waking up.
I guess you'll also say that it's a good idea to wake up a homeless vet who suffers from PTSD by making loud thunderous noises next to them. Right...
Do yourself a favor and read some of those books in that library. For one, you might actually be able to go back and read previous posts and COMPREHEND that I do not support what these idiots did at all.
You might also just learn a thing or two about being literally "startled to death."
Then we' can come back and discuss who posted "the dumbest thing" here.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352
The behavior is not excused on either part.
Throwing a pitcher of water on an unsuspecting person is very idiotic and cruel. No, I do not support that. I also do not support the idea of using a private establishment as sleeping grounds, especially after being asked to leave.
In the meantime, see the shocking truth about unwanted water tossing. But please, viewer discretion is advised. There are plainly two people that really don't want to get hit with water....getting hit with water.
It's honestly pathetic that the same few people here keep trying to rationalize what was done to this mentally ill man so hard and act like it isn't a big deal. Many people on CD show their true colors on threads like this.
The game Lindsay Lohan was playing on Fallon is called "Water War." Clearly, she went into it as a knowing and willing participant - even if she really didn't want to get soaked with water, she knew the rules of the game and she opted to play. They sat there before playing with multiple glasses of ice water knowing that were going to get tossed on each other. This is as pathetic and as much of a reach as the dropping a book analogy brought up by another poster.
Whether one wants water thrown on them and whether, depending on a particular statute, it qualifies as some type of crime will depend on the context. Clearly the Lohan/Fallon context would never qualify as a low level crime. Neither would kids playing with water guns with one another, as someone brought up somewhere. In this instance we had grown adult employees of a DD throwing water on a sleeping mentally ill homeless man (getting his phone and charger wet and potentially ruining them), rather than trying to use other means to get him to leave. While technically it may qualify as an assault, I feel that's a stretch and most prosecutors imo wouldn't bother with this one, but that doesn't make it right (that also doesn't make it never qualify as a crime depending on how a statute is worded, plenty of prosecutors choose not to bring charges even if they could depending on many factors).
It's quite simple, so simple I can't even believe it has to be explained - don't throw water unexpectedly on strangers. I would never think to toss a pitcher of water on someone like this, it's cruel and unnecessary, I don't even understand the mentality or anyone who sticks up for it.
In the meantime, see the shocking truth about unwanted water tossing. But please, viewer discretion is advised. There are plainly two people that really don't want to get hit with water....getting hit with water.
A criminal offense does not require proof of "damages" as an element. That would be relevant in a civil action for damages.
The Lindsay Lohan video is an example of something other than a criminal assault. Lindsay consented to have water thrown at her as part of a game. This whole activity was done with the consent of both participants and to generate ratings for the program.
I will review the elements of an assault:
A. A touching;
B. That is either harmful or offensive;
C. And was intended by the person doing the touching.
What distinguishes the Lohan situation from what happened to the man at Dunkin Donuts is the touching would not be deemed harmful or offensive because Lohan consented to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352
When of where did I ever say/imply this?
I've posted NUMEROUS times that both parties were in the wrong.
Also, don't be so quick to call something "dumb," especially when it is clear that you know absolutely nothing about the issue. Yes, it is VERY possible to cause someone with medical conditions to suffer a heart attack or seizure by making sudden loud noises to startle them into waking up.
I guess you'll also say that it's a good idea to wake up a homeless vet who suffers from PTSD by making loud thunderous noises next to them. Right...
Do yourself a favor and read some of those books in that library. For one, you might actually be able to go back and read previous posts and COMPREHEND that I do not support what these idiots did at all.
You might also just learn a thing or two about being literally "startled to death."
Then we' can come back and discuss who posted "the dumbest thing" here.
Edit:
Throwing a pitcher of water on an unsuspecting person is very idiotic and cruel. No, I do not support that. I also do not support the idea of using a private establishment as sleeping grounds, especially after being asked to leave.
If there is a possibility of causing someone to have a heart attack because a book was dropped near them than that possibility is a highly remote one. If you think otherwise, than provide some data indicating the number of people who have had heart attacks after a book was dropped near them while they were sleeping. I'm sure its a much smaller number than the number of deaths each year due to being struck by lightning.
If there is some confusion here its because your message is highly mixed. On the one hand you claim you don't defend the behavior of dumping ice water on a homeless man. Than you repeatedly try to minimize the significance of what happened. If you don't understand why that would confuse people a bit than you aren't thinking clearly.
If there is some confusion here its because your message is highly mixed. On the one hand you claim you don't defend the behavior of dumping ice water on a homeless man. Than you repeatedly try to minimize the significance of what happened. If you don't understand why that would confuse people a bit than you aren't thinking clearly.
I can't speak for the person you're quoting. But.. While I totally agree that what the employee did was wrong. Raising it to a criminal level is silly. What's next? a 6 year old with a water pistol gets sued for damages for squirting the next door neighbor? After all, that meets the definition you've given.
The proper resolution has come to pass. The employee has been terminated. Justly. Taking it beyond that makes no sense whatsoever.
So.. Not sure what would be confusing about that. Things can be done that are wrong that are not criminal. This is not something that needs to clog up our court system. This 'kid', I don't recall his age, though it was certainly an age that should have known better, doesn't need to have anything on his record about this.
By dumping water on the man, these employees committed a criminal assault.
I can only hope they are prosecuted for it.
I don't want them suffering draconian punishment for dumping water on someone, but there should be some criminal sanction in a case like this. Perhaps, a fine equal to a month of their salary at Dunkin Donuts.
Not necessarily a criminal assault. Under NY's penal code, without actual injury, it would be attempted assault (a misdemeanor) or harassment (a violation).
120.00 Assault in the third degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:
1. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
3. With criminal negligence, he causes physical injury to another
person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument.
Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
If no injury, then it is likely that he could be charge with Attempted Assault, also a misdemeanor:
110.00 Attempt to commit a crime.
A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime when, with intent to commit a crime, he engages in conduct which tends to effect the commission of such crime.
If, for some reason, that doesn't apply, an even lesser charge is Harassment in the 2d Degree:
240.26 Harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of harassment in the second degree when, with intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:
1. He or she strikes, shoves, kicks or otherwise subjects such other person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same; or
2. He or she follows a person in or about a public place or places; or
3. He or she engages in a course of conduct or repeatedly commits acts which alarm or seriously annoy such other person and which serve no legitimate purpose.
Subdivisions two and three of this section shall not apply to activities regulated by the national labor relations act, as amended, the railway labor act, as amended, or the federal employment labor management act, as amended.
Harassment in the second degree is a violation.
In other words, unfortunately, just a slap on the wrist if prosecutors wanted to take the time to prosecute.
Last edited by adjusterjack; 10-05-2018 at 12:19 PM..
Not necessarily a criminal assault. Under NY's penal code, without actual injury, it would be attempted assault (a misdemeanor) or harassment (a violation).
In other words, unfortunately, just a slap on the wrist if prosecutors wanted to take the time to prosecute.
Yes. But the point here isn't whether it is criminal. The point is that regardless of any criminality, it is wrong to do to a person what these employees did to this man. Something doesn't have to be illegal for it to be wrong and inappropriate. Their firing shows that DD thinks it was wrong, bad for its image, and took it seriously.
I worked at a chain ice cream place throughout high school and college and I probably would have been fired for doing something similar. Not that I ever even would have thought of doing something like this, let alone actually done it. But it's an inappropriate way to handle the situation and it makes the business look bad. No one wants individuals who would do something like this working for them, whether for selfish reasons (makes whole business look bad) or because they actually care about others (don't want mentally ill homeless people doused with water in their establishment).
I'm sure you understand this point, most do, I just wanted to try to bring it back into perspective because the discussion of whether it would qualify as an assault doesn't really matter. As far as we know, no one has been charged, and they probably won't be. But regardless, in these circumstances, what these people did to this man was wrong and inappropriate. The employees showed how immature and cruel they are, and those who don't find much or any fault in what they did are likely the same. To me, there is no excusing this, not even a little bit. There are much better and less cruel ways to handle a homeless person repeatedly hanging out in your business unwanted.
I can't speak for the person you're quoting. But.. While I totally agree that what the employee did was wrong. Raising it to a criminal level is silly. What's next? a 6 year old with a water pistol gets sued for damages for squirting the next door neighbor? After all, that meets the definition you've given.
Cutting someone's hair without their permission can also be considered an assault and there was a 13 year old who was convicted in juvenile court for cutting off a 6 year old's hair as a joke.
Most states don't convict children under the age of 10 for things like this so your example isn't a good one.
You can think it's silly if you want to. But our laws say it's not okay to do things to a person without their permission or consent.
1 - A library is a PUBLIC place. DD is not. It's private property. Two VERY different types of establishments.
Doesn't matter. Public doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, or stay when you're asked to leave... you can still be charged with trespassing if you refuse to leave, and sleeping is a direct violation of our "Guidelines for use." If anything, we have MORE rules to enforce than a private business. So we use gentle methods for waking someone that won't get us into legal trouble, and have never been proven to be unsafe. We're not shooting a gun in the air, for crying out loud! I'm talking about a QUIET drop of a book, like on the carpet near them.
Regardless, do you think the laws change depending on where you're standing at the time? If I were to punch someone in the face, would it matter if I was in a public library or a private restaurant at that moment? Assault is assault no matter where you are, thus your argument is moot.
Quote:
2 - What happens if you drop a book, startle the person and they get a heart attack? Most homeless people are not healthy, and sudden fear can cause a myriad of issues leading to death. You making loud noises to startle people into waking up is FAR MORE dangerous than dumping water on them. Heart attacks, seizures, etc.
It's never happened that I'm aware of (at a library), so nice stretch there... but it's still irrelevant, because we are legally not allowed to touch them with ANYTHING including water. So we have two choices: Use a noise to wake them, or ignore the fact that they're violating our guidelines. Sometimes we do the latter, if they're not snoring and nobody has complained yet. But when we have to wake them, these are the techniques we use; and they are infinitely better than dumping water on someone.
Quote:
Try again.
Your turn.
Last edited by gizmo980; 10-05-2018 at 01:38 PM..
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