Why do you love living in Dallas? Would you rather live in Dallas or Denver? Thanks (Houston: credit, theatre)
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I don't love Dallas but I don't hate it. I'm originally from the Washington State (I grew up in Central WA but have spent most of my adult life in Seattle). I have been to Denver but its been a long time. We've lived in Dallas for 9 months and moved here for my husband's job.
Dallas does not have a very independent progressive spirit or good urban planning. This means a few things to me: there are lots of chain stores, fewer independent shops (there are some no doubt) which means there is less of an identity of the city, if you will. Asian restaurants are awful (okay, I'm biased -- Seattle has great sushi, Thai, etc and it may be unfair to compare them). And it feels very isolating to me. I spend a lot of time alone in my car, people aren't out walking, riding their bikes, etc. Green space and green community space is limited. I think is the result of poor urban planning.
Dallas is a convenient place to live. It is easy to grocery shop and get all your errands done. There are tons of shops (3 Targets within 5 miles of our house) and real estates is very affordable. People are very friendly here.
Despite its good qualities, I can't wait to leave. My husband will finish his job stint in 15 months and we are on our way home, to WA.
You must live inside Dallas. Here, we are noted above all for our independent spirit and refusal to patronize chains and franchises (but you seem to like -- TARGET oy.). Where exactly you?
If a property tax in Denver is lower than Dallas for an equivalent house, other things being the same, then your local city and county services have to be inferior and underfunded.
We actually lived in a suburb South of Denver and paid about $2K property tax per year for a $375K house. The recreational amenities, trail system, city planning, schools, etc. were extremely organized and a far cry from underfunded. In fact, there was money in the budget to provide school bus service for every child in the district direct from their neighborhood, plow all roads during snow storms, structured city activities, etc. We now pay about $6K in property tax for a $270K home.
Winter, there is something in your post that doesn't make sense. It costs money to provide local services such as fire protection, schools, road maintenance, police protection, etc, and it really beggars the imagination to think that what costs $6,000 per year in Dallas only costs $2,000 per year in Denver. Do your police officers have a salary one third of Dallas'? Is the cost of books for a public library in Denver 1/3 the cost of books in Dallas? Does a Denver suburb buy a police car for 1/3 the cost?
Unless they have repealed the rules of arithmetic, your statement about tax costs must have some glaring exceptions, some atypical circumstances, some unusual criteria. Municipal services cost money. There may be exceptional, atypical cases, but I would think that the average municipal tax expense per capita or per household would be equivalent.
I think the point regarding the taxes - is that between Colorado and Texas overall, they are not that much different. That has been my experience, having lived in both Denver and Dallas I (and being a native of neither).
Texas has high property taxes, but no income tax. Colorado has slightly higher sales tax, and an income tax, but much lower property taxes. So - the arithmetic adds up fine.
And to add my .02 to the argument with no right answer...
Denver is by far a nicer place to live for someone who likes an outdoor lifestyle. I could ride my bike from the east side of metro Denver to the foothills and never leave a bike trail. Hiking trails all over the city. Great parks. Fantastic weather (even in the winter -but I don't mind the cold), good public transportation, great fine arts scene - close to as good as DFW.
Dallas has more shopping and more restaurants and I think is slightly more diverse ethnically. Also is a little more green in the landscape. Much easier gardening, because it rains more in Dallas. Also, I find the people in Dallas overall a little more friendly and easy going, though we've had great friends in both places.
It comes down to what people are used to and their lifestyle. I prefer Denver, but Dallas has it's pluses too.
I think the point regarding the taxes - is that between Colorado and Texas overall, they are not that much different. That has been my experience, having lived in both Denver and Dallas I (and being a native of neither).
Texas has high property taxes, but no income tax. Colorado has slightly higher sales tax, and an income tax, but much lower property taxes. So - the arithmetic adds up fine.
This is why it makes no sense to me when people say the cost of living is so much less in Dallas. Its not when you add all the numbers up. The bottom line is you will pay for public services one way of the other. Some states just split up the taxes different.
This is why it makes no sense to me when people say the cost of living is so much less in Dallas. Its not when you add all the numbers up. The bottom line is you will pay for public services one way of the other. Some states just split up the taxes different.
The question is this. Does the state of Colorado really subsidize local county and city governments out of a state tax base, in order to lower local property taxes? If local property taxes per capita or per household are lower in the Denver suburbs than the Dallas suburbs, meaning that the county has less money from the property tax, does the state really make up the shortage out of its general fund?
Or even if the state does give the counties some money, does that make up the shortfall from a lower per capita tax base?
I don't know the answer relative to Colorado, but I know that California definitely does not give money to the counties and cities. In fact, the state requires counties to pay for programs that are normally a state responsibility, further stressing the counties' general fund.
I'm guessing that the state of Colorado and its politicians are as greedy for their budget as any other government, and the cities and counties are on their own as far as raising taxes to support their budgets. Then, if their per capita revenue is lower than the Dallas suburbs, their expenditures for local services have to be less.
Even if a state or Federal government gave the counties millions of dollars to pay for city streets and firehouses, in order to lower local taxes, it wouldn't stay that way for long. Politicians have an uncontrollable urge to buy political support by funneling money to special interests, and would just raise the local taxes back to previous levels. Better yet, they would just raise them as high as they could get away with. As Talleyrand said... "Raising taxes is like plucking a goose. You want the maximum amount of feathers and the minimum amount of hissing".
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Dallas has more shopping and more restaurants and I think is slightly more diverse ethnically.
Well, DFW is twice the size of Denver, so it will have twice as much of everything, including restaurants and shopping. I'd wonder how Denver, with less than 3 million people, can have an arts scene, whatever that means, approaching the DFW arts scene, in view of its six million population. Statistically, that's unlikely. Just as it's unlikely that the Dallas arts scene is almost as good as the Los Angeles arts scene.
The appeal of a diverse population? That depends if you're one of the diversities. If you're part of the Desi South Asian population, you want a lot of them around so you have a good choice of restaurants, shopping and entertainment. On the other hand, you would not benefit from Dallas' Iranian or Chinese community.
Well, DFW is twice the size of Denver, so it will have twice as much of everything, including restaurants and shopping. I'd wonder how Denver, with less than 3 million people, can have an arts scene, whatever that means, approaching the DFW arts scene, in view of its six million population. Statistically, that's unlikely. Just as it's unlikely that the Dallas arts scene is almost as good as the Los Angeles arts scene.
The appeal of a diverse population? That depends if you're one of the diversities. If you're part of the Desi South Asian population, you want a lot of them around so you have a good choice of restaurants, shopping and entertainment. On the other hand, you would not benefit from Dallas' Iranian or Chinese community.
You sure love trying to trip people up on minor things...Don't forget that Denver is the largest metropolitan area for MILES. The nearest cities are Kansas City and Salt Lake, both of which are 500-600 miles away. Denver serves as THE major transportation, commerce, industrial, etc. hub for that entire region (Colorado/Wyoming/Western Nebraska/Western Kansas), so yes, the art scene is going to be quite major considering it's relatively isolated location compared to D/FW, and it's drawing power as a place to relocate. It may be the closest 'big city' experience for someone from say, Grand Junction or Pueblo or Cheyenne.
The question is this. Does the state of Colorado really subsidize local county and city governments out of a state tax base, in order to lower local property taxes? If local property taxes per capita or per household are lower in the Denver suburbs than the Dallas suburbs, meaning that the county has less money from the property tax, does the state really make up the shortage out of its general fund?
Or even if the state does give the counties some money, does that make up the shortfall from a lower per capita tax base?
I don't know the answer relative to Colorado, but I know that California definitely does not give money to the counties and cities. In fact, the state requires counties to pay for programs that are normally a state responsibility, further stressing the counties' general fund.
I'm guessing that the state of Colorado and its politicians are as greedy for their budget as any other government, and the cities and counties are on their own as far as raising taxes to support their budgets. Then, if their per capita revenue is lower than the Dallas suburbs, their expenditures for local services have to be less.
Even if a state or Federal government gave the counties millions of dollars to pay for city streets and firehouses, in order to lower local taxes, it wouldn't stay that way for long. Politicians have an uncontrollable urge to buy political support by funneling money to special interests, and would just raise the local taxes back to previous levels. Better yet, they would just raise them as high as they could get away with. As Talleyrand said... "Raising taxes is like plucking a goose. You want the maximum amount of feathers and the minimum amount of hissing".
Well, DFW is twice the size of Denver, so it will have twice as much of everything, including restaurants and shopping. I'd wonder how Denver, with less than 3 million people, can have an arts scene, whatever that means, approaching the DFW arts scene, in view of its six million population. Statistically, that's unlikely. Just as it's unlikely that the Dallas arts scene is almost as good as the Los Angeles arts scene.
The appeal of a diverse population? That depends if you're one of the diversities. If you're part of the Desi South Asian population, you want a lot of them around so you have a good choice of restaurants, shopping and entertainment. On the other hand, you would not benefit from Dallas' Iranian or Chinese community.
Well... I don't know the answer to your tax questions of how Colorado/Denver taxes are allocated between state and local - but having lived in both places for a fair amount of time I can tell you the overall tax burden between Denver and Dallas seems to be pretty similar. I'm sure it could vary with income level (Texas has one of the most regressive tax structures in the country (i.e higher tax burden for the poor).
One other thought. DFW has many, many more cities than Denver. Part of that is the much higher population - but not all. All these cities have overhead expenses that are somewhat redundant to support - maybe that makes a difference (?). One example is that Denver county and the city of Denver are the same political entity - so only one govt to support instead of a city of Dallas and a county of Dallas.
As for the arts - I think I've been to every major Denver and DFW museum, as well as many of the performing arts. Denver is pretty darn good - and it's mostly concentrated in a relatively small convenient area. Denver has the largest performing arts center in the world. I'm no critic, and don't even go to performng arts that often - but I do try to sample what's available. From my perspective, Denver is as good as DFW.
AND...I happen to think diversity makes a place more interesting to live. I like getting to meet (or even just see) people that are different that I am, and glimpsing a little of their life and perspective. Some people don't like that - OK with me.
Well... I don't know the answer to your tax questions of how Colorado/Denver taxes are allocated between state and local - but having lived in both places for a fair amount of time I can tell you the overall tax burden between Denver and Dallas seems to be pretty similar. I'm sure it could vary with income level (Texas has one of the most regressive tax structures in the country (i.e higher tax burden for the poor).
One other thought. DFW has many, many more cities than Denver. Part of that is the much higher population - but not all. All these cities have overhead expenses that are somewhat redundant to support - maybe that makes a difference (?). One example is that Denver county and the city of Denver are the same political entity - so only one govt to support instead of a city of Dallas and a county of Dallas.
As for the arts - I think I've been to every major Denver and DFW museum, as well as many of the performing arts. Denver is pretty darn good - and it's mostly concentrated in a relatively small convenient area. Denver has the largest performing arts center in the world. I'm no critic, and don't even go to performng arts that often - but I do try to sample what's available. From my perspective, Denver is as good as DFW.
AND...I happen to think diversity makes a place more interesting to live. I like getting to meet (or even just see) people that are different that I am, and glimpsing a little of their life and perspective. Some people don't like that - OK with me.
Thanks for responding.
I'd also guess that the cost of government is probably comparable between the two metros, since the overall cost of living is probably close. But the idea that the average Denver property tax payment is on average one third that of the DFW average seems absolutely absurd. The absence of an income tax in Texas and its replacement by a sales tax is a major advantage for Texas metros, because income taxes stifle an economy. You don't tax something you want more of. Also, the mass of people who choose between moving to one city or another are usually more hurt by income taxes that disfavor the prosperous than sales taxes with their more egalitarian burden. It may seem callous, but a metro area is better off with an influx of the rich rather than an influx of the poor.
I'm glad you're satisfied with the availability of arts performances in Denver, but quantity and diversity of choices due to the size of the audience is a major factor in the choice of cities. Dallas will have a numerical advantage simply because its audience, and its supply of dollars, is more than twice the size of Denver's. The availability and diversity of entertainments is a major consideration in choosing between Denver and Dallas... Dallas will have more to do. This applies to highbrow art such as Dallas' dozen symphony orchestras, or dozen art museums, middlebrow art such as DFW's two or three dozen Broadway roadshows or its 21 screens for art, specialty and foreign films, or lowbrow art like Hannah Montana.
When you think about it, the idea that Denver has as much entertainment as DFW is absurd. Is there any reason to believe that the average Denverite spends twice as much for arts as the Dallas average? There is no reason in principle to think so. But that's what it would take for Denver to be on a parity level with Dallas.
Diversity? That's a politically effete claim that many people give lip service to, but very few actually indulge in. The broad mass of the population could not care less about the absolute number of ethnic groups in a metropolitan area, and very few would base a decision on something like that. But for those who do, Dallas is probably ahead of Denver in that area. For example, Dallas has the only full-time 24 hour South Asian FM radio station in the US.
There's a huge billboard in Dallas, on the eastbound I-30 heading into downtown, promoting Denver and urging Dallasites to visit LoDo (Denver's Lower Downtown). I wonder if there's a billboard off I-70 in Denver urging locals to visit Deep Ellum?
Seriously, though Denver metro may be smaller than Dallas metro, its arts scene is generally well respected these days. I think that Denver punches higher than its weight class. That's not to say it's better than DFW but better than one might think based on its population.
Part of that is because it is the only major metro around for miles, it's the state capitol, it's the home of at least two major universities (University of Denver and University of Colorado in Boulder), has a huge population of young people, and is a relatively well-off area, meaning there may be more disposable income than in some larger Rust Belt regions.
USA Today even published a piece about the robust arts scene last year:
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