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I'm begging you study up on this as your kids get older. You are correct that a 176AI is the absolute minimum that avoids the circular file. However, as each school's entire athletic program on a per class basis must have an average AI number within an absolute maximum of 1 standard deviation from the overall class mean......the kid with a 176 needs to be the next Jordan Spieth or Michael Jordan because the rest of his class across all sports will have to make up for his AI deficiency.
First you are wrong that the kids needs to be the next Jordan Spieth or Michael Jordan. He would have to be one of the best in the Ivy league no doubt but the barometer is not one of the best in the world because those kids don't ever go to the Ivies. You would have to be a good player in one of the Big 5 conferences which would likely make you the best players (or one of the best) in the Ivy league.
Second you keep focusing on the wrong thing. You act as if I said every single kid sitting at 176 can go to an Ivy league school. That is not what I implied nor did I ever say. What I said is that if depending on your skill level at sports the barometer for acceptance is lowered. how good you are will decide how much it is lowered. I can't be any more clear than that. So yes if you are the next Michael Jordan 176 probably gets you in. If you are someone like a JJ Redick you probably still get in with a 176 as he was one of the best college players the years he played. If you are a JJ Barea then you probably need a 182 or 186. Any 5 star recruit for their respective sport is likely getting in with around a 180. Any 4 star recruit and it is only slightly higher. Any 3 star recruit (Richard Sherman BTW) slightly higher again. If you just apply straight up anything under 200 and you have no shot of getting in
I can't be in more clear than this. IF YOU PLAY SPORTS THE BAROMETER FOR YOU TO GET INTO THE IVIES IS LOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You keeps saying no it isn't and then saying the exact same thing. I said that you have to at least get a 176 to be considered. You went and said no you have to be Michael Jordan and get a 176. I never stated anything differently. I stated you have to get a 176 and that is correct. If Michael Jordan gets a 175 he is not in. If he gets a 176 he is. So what I said is 100% correct in that the minimum is 176. Period.
What you end up seeing in the Ivies are kids who would be marginal to good (not great) in leagues like the SEC, ACC, Pac 12, Big 12, etc who go to the Ivy league instead and excel because they are focused on Academics as much as sports. A kid with an option to play at Oregon State, Eastern Washington, or Brown might very well likely choose Brown. He knows he will be average at Oregon State or Eastern Washington, but can shine at Brown. Is the 2.0, 1000 SAT doing it? No. Is the 3.6, 1350 Kid doing it? Much more likely. The exact same kid who plays no sports likely isn't going to Brown (unless he somehow gets lucky and is admitted).
If you think top tier Asian American and Asian students as a cadre don't want to go to Harvard you are seriously out of touch.
Beat me to it. I work with a lot of Asian parents and many of them fret about their kids getting into Ivies or other top-tier schools. Many regard UT-Austin as their kid's "safety" or "backup" school yet are astoundingly impressed that I went there. They're also shooting for huge scholarships.
You perspective aligns exactly (100%) with Harvard.
These are the exact words from Harvard when they started the anti-Semitic Jewish Quota:
Quote:
it is neither feasible nor desirable to raise the standards of the College so high that none but brilliant scholars can enter
the standards ought never to be so high for serious and ambitious students of average intelligence
gather additional information on character and fitness and the promise of the greatest usefulness in the future as a result of a Harvard education
The anti-Semitic feeling among the students is increasing, and it grows in proportion to the increase in the number of Jews. If their number should become 40% of the student body, the race feeling would become intense.
Note I'm not criticizing you. Asian quota is today's moral standard and it won't go away anytime soon. My post was talking about what will happen next.
It's in Asian culture to not challenge the rule, but to adapt and evolve yourself and survive with it. If academics get deprioritized, and athlete/extra-circular become the lower-hanging fruit, of course Asians will swarm into these activities and raise the bar there again. Not sure everyone want to see this happen.
Last month I mentioned an Asian boy won an international figure skating championship for US. Guess what happened a few days ago? Another Asian girl won the world gymnastics championship for US team.
What will be the new dynamics? I'm curious whether at the end it will end up being a net loss for all non-Asians, considering AA doesn't really help the URM in the long term either.
Observationally, it seems to for the schools around here (I'm in Plano), once the Asian population hit something in the mid-30 percentile, then the school relatively quickly changes into an Asian majority school.
What is the true profile of a National Merit Scholar/Finalist/Semi-Finalist these days? Yes, there are quite a few students from North Plano who achieve National Merit Status. Most of them have Asian ancestry. However, there are also numerous extracurricular programs and that's where much of the education occurs. A significant percentage of the Asian students (and quite a few non-Asian students) seem to be taking extra courses in math. Anecdotally, the highest achievers seem to also be getting help from their engineer/scientist parent. A previous instructor from one of those programs, who was a TAMster, told me she learned a lot of grammar from Karen Dillard, not from her Honors English classes in Plano ISD.
When I was younger, my father had the foresight to enroll me in a suburban Texas district with the best reputation locally. The teachers taught (and marked their students' papers), we had decent books, many teachers were focused on the high achievers and smart students. Teaching to the bottom wasn't the imperative. There was no top 10%/6% rule for Texas colleges. We had a significant percentage of the class with National Merit status, but the kids who had it were mainly self-directed and studying on their own. There were quite a few affluent people paying for SAT prep, but those kids weren't the ones becoming National Merit Scholars, etc.
The scores are definitely higher, but the test keeps changing, and in my humble opinion, keeps getting watered down.
Harvard and the other Ivies moved away from a fairly strict melange of legacy privilege + merit as the key drivers of admission many decades ago in order to limit the number of Jews admitted.
That’s an ugly historical fact.
I’m willing to bet that history is what drives their ‘holistic’ admissions choices. I think everyone on this thread understands there is no way Harvard or any other Ivy would ever go completely merit based as they are very indebted to and influenced by legacies. In fact legacies are what made the Ivy league so desirable in many people’s eyes. Its a prestige thing; they aren’t the best schools for everything. But they are the most prestigious always.
Given that fact, its ludicrous for any truthfully speaking person to think that with all that history and all that money, they would give up control of admissions to some federal government regulation. Not. Gonna. Happen. They’d just as soon do away with acceptance of federal funds. Lord knows almost all of the most powerful in banking and government are their alumni. If anyone marvels at Baylor’s ability to wiggle out of trouble, watch Harvard do its thing.
This ‘suit’ will go nowhere. And if it goes somewhere, nothing will come of it. And if by some miracle something comes from it, the Ivies will simply stop accepting federal funds and get back to work. It isn’t like they need the money.
They dont need the bad press either; but people shouldn’t underestimate the influence of a centuries old legacy.
Beat me to it. I work with a lot of Asian parents and many of them fret about their kids getting into Ivies or other top-tier schools. Many regard UT-Austin as their kid's "safety" or "backup" school yet are astoundingly impressed that I went there. They're also shooting for huge scholarships.
I've seen that exact logic from Asian/Asian American friends many times.
I've seen that exact logic from Asian/Asian American friends many times.
Can't blame them I guess; everyone wants (or should want) the best for their child according to their abilities & needs, but I think putting insane amounts of pressure on a kid to get into an Ivy League school is misplaced since many "qualified on paper" candidates won't get in.
In short, nobody should feel like a failure because they didn't get into an Ivy League school. And there are plenty of affluent parents of all races putting that kind of pressure on kids.
Can't blame them I guess; everyone wants (or should want) the best for their child according to their abilities & needs, but I think putting insane amounts of pressure on a kid to get into an Ivy League school is misplaced since many "qualified on paper" candidates won't get in.
In short, nobody should feel like a failure because they didn't get into an Ivy League school. And there are plenty of affluent parents of all races putting that kind of pressure on kids.
Nobody should.
The irony/paradox here is the higher the number of people that try to groom their kids for the Ivies, the less likely it is that those same kids will get in.
Also, the higher the number of people in a certain group that aim for the same ‘formula’ for admission (e.g high grades, some string instrument, 1000 volunteer hours, valedictorian etc) the lower the percentage of kids that meets that criteria in that group that actually gets admitted.
As a previous poster said, its a supply and demand issue.
I’m willing to bet that history is what drives their ‘holistic’ admissions choices. I think everyone on this thread understands there is no way Harvard or any other Ivy would ever go completely merit based as they are very indebted to and influenced by legacies. In fact legacies are what made the Ivy league so desirable in many people’s eyes. Its a prestige thing; they aren’t the best schools for everything. But they are the most prestigious always.
Given that fact, its ludicrous for any truthfully speaking person to think that with all that history and all that money, they would give up control of admissions to some federal government regulation. Not. Gonna. Happen. They’d just as soon do away with acceptance of federal funds. Lord knows most almost all of the most powerful in banking and government are their alumni. If anyone marvels at Baylor’s ability to wiggle out of trouble, watch Harvard do its thing.
This ‘suit’ will go nowhere. And if it goes somewhere, nothing will come of it. And if by some miracle something comes from it, the Ivies will simply stop accepting federal funds and get back to work. It isn’t like they need the money.
They dont need the bad press either; but people shouldn’t underestimate the influence of a centuries old legacy.
1. Likely no US school will move to 100% merit for undergrad admissions any time soon for the reasons you stated plus the fact there is no better way to create an unhealthy environment than to have a whole bunch of super motivated academic robot types in the same place.
2. You are 100% wrong about federal funding. Let's just focus on the Harvard School of Public Health and Harvard Medical School. Each receives staggering amounts of federal cash every year, $500,000,000 + in total.
The minute federal funding went to zero every top researcher associated with either entity would leave. These researchers want the money for sure but almost as importantly they want exposure to The NIH as the NIH provides much of the funding mentioned you see the double edged sword involved.
3. I seems to me the feds are not trying to take over Harvard's admissions process. They are trying to understand and potentially partially remedy Harvard's obvious bias against Asians and much less importantly Harvard's very odd geographical biases across The US.
If the .gov can show that Harvard is holding Asian American and Asian students to an unfair standard it is the .gov's job to get involved.
Can't blame them I guess; everyone wants (or should want) the best for their child according to their abilities & needs, but I think putting insane amounts of pressure on a kid to get into an Ivy League school is misplaced since many "qualified on paper" candidates won't get in.
In short, nobody should feel like a failure because they didn't get into an Ivy League school. And there are plenty of affluent parents of all races putting that kind of pressure on kids.
It does seem to me there is a overweight fascination with the Ivies amongst Asian Americans - especially Harvard.
The overall vibe at Saint Marks is very much in that direction as well to a very unhealthy extent IMO. A few years back the son of good friends and a Saint Marks kid was reduced to short term depression and crying fits because he was rejected by Harvard, Yale and Penn after being pushed and cajoled by the school to work the Ivy angle hard. He's killing it in graduate school now but the aura of Saint Marks took a big hit in my eyes.
It does seem to me there is a overweight fascination with the Ivies amongst Asian Americans - especially Harvard.
The overall vibe at Saint Marks is very much in that direction as well to a very unhealthy extent IMO. A few years back the son of good friends and a Saint Marks kid was reduced to short term depression and crying fits because he was rejected by Harvard, Yale and Penn after being pushed and cajoled by the school to work the Ivy angle hard. He's killing it in graduate school now but the aura of Saint Marks took a big hit in my eyes.
I think that's becoming more and more common at lots of the N Dallas private schools (my wife teaches at one) and HPISD. It's very pronounced at TAG in DISD. Of course, the more competitive the school, the more pronounced the effect probably is. Maybe it's the same in some northern burbs (Plano, Frisco, etc) but I don't know anyone with kids in suburban schools.
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