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My. I didn't mean to start a war.
I accept that there is a purebred world, although don't take part in it or want to. It's an interesting point, if people want a certain mix and will pay for it, and someone is out there creating that mix. Of course, a puppy mill of any type is unacceptable but I do see the point of someone paying money for a particular mix.
Actually, why is a two-breed mix likely to have the worst of both breed's genetic flaws? Aren't a lot of genetic flaws recessive traits, so a badly bred Springer with a badly bred Corgi, put them together and you get a dog who, at worst, will have two different recessive genes for some problem but won't have the problem. Do I misunderstand how it works?
Agreed that not everyone adopts or wants to. I guess I do have that kneejerk reaction to deliberately creating more dogs when so many are great for homes. Also agree that one or two generations of two breeds together doesn't create a new breed, especially if that mix isn't going to, what, be bred with another dog of the same mix? I guess there's no way to breed on down the line.
My first adoption was a wonderful Springer, military people who couldn't take him to Panama. Gorgeous dog, well trained, loving, four years old. After a few weeks, he began having vicious rage episodes that had to be seen to be believed. After he cornered me and opened up my hand and sincerely would have killed me if he could, I had to have him put down. I'm told that can be an inbred flaw with Springers, and I don't know that he was carelessly bred. I had a roommate who bred Bernese Mountain Dogs. She went up to Canada to get a female puppy for some $1000 (12 years ago) and she wanted the female to be a show and breed dog. Turns out the dog had some kind of eye defect that is inbred, so she had her spayed and I later saw the dog in a photo of people and their dogs playing in the local lake with their families.
Thanks to those who pointed out the judgemental attitude I was having. I do understand where it comes from now.
My. I didn't mean to start a war.
I accept that there is a purebred world, although don't take part in it or want to. It's an interesting point, if people want a certain mix and will pay for it, and someone is out there creating that mix. Of course, a puppy mill of any type is unacceptable but I do see the point of someone paying money for a particular mix.
Actually, why is a two-breed mix likely to have the worst of both breed's genetic flaws? Aren't a lot of genetic flaws recessive traits, so a badly bred Springer with a badly bred Corgi, put them together and you get a dog who, at worst, will have two different recessive genes for some problem but won't have the problem. Do I misunderstand how it works?
I agree with you completely. The problem with puppy mills is the conditions under which the dogs are kept, not so much that dogs are raised to be sold. I am not convinced, based on what I have read lately --- in other threads in this forum --- that a dog from a "reputable breeder" is necessarily healthier. The show dog breeders seem to be trying to show and breed unhealthy dogs.
Your statement about the genetics is true, except that some recessive disorders are found in more than one breed.
I totally understand the point some people are making that if you want a mixed breed, why not rescue one. The fact that "designer" dogs are commanding high prices is a tribute to marketing. But does it really matter if someone breeds a litter of pet quality Beagles or a litter of Puggles? I do not think that buying a specific mixed breed is substantially different from buying a purebred, if you are willing to pay for a pet. What is the difference between a Pug, a Beagle, and a Puggle if you do not want a show dog? And should show breeders not sell their pet quality animals? What percentage of potential show quality litters are sold for pets?
How do you Know what the recessive gene is IF you not clue who the parents/gparents & g-gparents are? THAT the danger! Yes How are you going to Know What these 1st generation pups are carring? Your NOT! OFA Wont even reg Mix or Cross breeds! So that 1st generation Wont be checked to see IF it has the bad hips & elbows or its Puppies. And the Breeder that org have the AKC parents & discovered they needed to cull a litter for some reason selling them as fixed Pets may or my not tell the person. Let me give you an example...
When I was looking for a Papillon I contacted a breeder of Champions! I was wondering IF she had or knew anyone that had a 2-3 yr old female they sell that was not show or breed qulity BUT she herself was healthy. She had this Female she got for breeding ... she had all the health checks done then suddenly out of the blue the mom went BLIND! She had very expensive surgury done to save the dogs sight! She was looking for home for the mom & her 2 pups Must be fixed. NOW What IF she had sold me one of these paps & I brought the dog home with No papers til she was fixed BUT instead I bred her to say a poodle. & Sold the pups for 3 times the price of a purebred poodle or pap cost? BUT Who do you think is responsible when the pups became blind? OR What if no pups in that breeding became blind But the next generation does.... You be lucky to beable to trace your dog back to the org person [me] & you have no proof to do anything about it even if you did discover it was me! So now there is a Whole lot of these Dogs that for Medical Reason Should Not be bred!
IF You buy from a breeder they WANT to know about their pups & Most will assit you in learning how to breed. They even pick males for you!
Tell you something else...You buy from a breeder of Purebred dogs You Can SUE IF your dog has heraitary defects! It called a Lemon Law! BUT most breeder IF they Know something is wrong wont even breed that dog.
Just to make things clear I Did Not get LAdy-Bug from this breeder! I decided for the best interest of the pups & there mom was people that could afford the operation they may need.
of potential show quality litters are sold for pets?
Breeders are lucky that 1 puppy in a litter that is show qulity. Most are sold as Pets as they grow & the breeders find out they are not show qulity! Great part is these PETS are form geniticly Healty Dogs!
You want a Puggle go rescue one thats in your local pound! All it takes is for 1 puppy the be sold at a huge price & the person goes ahead & breeds more! What do they do with unsold pups...DUMP them at the Pound! IF they have No Profit they Will stop breeding! My neighbor has a mutt he got from the pound she supose to be a puggle LOL She looks like a cross between a beagle & doxie to me! What ever she is she cant eat hard foods her mouth has a bad bite [upper jaw is shorter than the lower jaw] BTW this can happen when breed mix! YOU wont know IF that cute puppy will have a pug jaw beagle jaw or some thing inbetween or monster jaw til its Full Grown!
of potential show quality litters are sold for pets?
Breeders are lucky that 1 puppy in a litter that is show qulity. Most are sold as Pets as they grow & the breeders find out they are not show qulity! Great part is these PETS are form geniticly Healty Dogs!
People are deliberately showing and breeding dogs that are not genetically healthy. If the purebreds are so healthy, why does it cost more to buy health insurance for them? What do show dog breeders do with puppies they cannot sell?
To my knowlege these Laws can Only be enforced IF the dog IS reg with AKC or UKC Does Not cover hybreds!
The lemon laws do not seem to do much except provide a short opportunity to get the dog in to see a vet. They do not cover a long enough time frame for many congenital defects to become apparent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1
How do you Know what the recessive gene is IF you not clue who the parents/gparents & g-gparents are?
If a "designer" dog is the result of the mating between two purebred dogs, why would you not know the ancestry of the dogs? The information is there if the parents are registered, even if the offspring are not eligible for registration. Obviously, the physical characteristics of the adult dog will be less predictable if you cross two breeds, but that is true of any mutt. When you get a mixed breed puppy from a pound, you really will not know what the adult will look like or whether it will have any health problems.
All I am saying is that I see no difference between a pet quality purebred and a crossbreed, if that is what someone chooses to have as a pet. How much one chooses to pay is strictly between the breeder and the buyer. Each dog is an individual. You may get one with health issues whether you get a mixed breed from a shelter or a purebred from a show breeder.
For the record, our household has two dogs at present: a purebred Presa Canario (DH likes large, exotic breeds), and our grand dog, a pound dog.
I don't imagine a reputable breeder, ie. one who does genetic testing on the potential breeding dog to screen for congenital issues common to the breed once it is old enough and who screens potential buyers very carefully before even breeding the dogs, would be involved in these "designer hybrids" ..... that leaves the ever present backyard breeder or puppy miller to breed these dogs .... that is what people gullible enough to pay the exorbitant prices are supporting.....
I don't imagine a reputable breeder, ie. one who does genetic testing on the potential breeding dog to screen for congenital issues common to the breed once it is old enough and who screens potential buyers very carefully before even breeding the dogs, would be involved in these "designer hybrids" ..... that leaves the ever present backyard breeder or puppy miller to breed these dogs .... that is what people gullible enough to pay the exorbitant prices are supporting.....
The reality is many of these 'designer" dogs are not purchased as p[etsor companions, they have been relegated to a Fashion Accessory. The buyers sledom have any clue about the dog, its traits or its needs, all they know is that this is the IN dog and they want one. We see this even with purebreed purcahses where poeple buy adog based oj how that dog will estab;ish their social status, but since they are not really buying a certain opet dog, they are confused, upset or dismayed when the animal acts like the animal and not like the marketing material and social discussion portrayed that breed.
the tru test of the prupose is to ask the person why they like that dog, and you will hear text book social statements and all about the status the dog portrays and little about the dog as a companion and pet.
The kind of breeder Pullmyfinger describes,who is breeding healthy dogs at a reasonable price, to people he knows rather than random people who walk into a pet shop with a credit card, and who I assume will take back a dog who is no longer wanted, isn't the person I have a problem with. It's the ones who charge a fortune and breed dogs they know have genetic defects or poor temperaments, breed dogs too young and too frequently, don't care who buys them, well you get the picture.
Here's an article about Wally Conron, who originated the Labradoodle, the dog that started the designer dog craze. He regrets opening that Pandora's box. Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian
The kind of breeder Pullmyfinger describes,who is breeding healthy dogs at a reasonable price, to people he knows rather than random people who walk into a pet shop with a credit card, and who I assume will take back a dog who is no longer wanted, isn't the person I have a problem with. It's the ones who charge a fortune and breed dogs they know have genetic defects or poor temperaments, breed dogs too young and too frequently, don't care who buys them, well you get the picture.
Here's an article about Wally Conron, who originated the Labradoodle, the dog that started the designer dog craze. He regrets opening that Pandora's box. Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian
^^^ THIS!!!
Rep fairy is still ignoring that my wand needs to be re-charged so I'll rep you when I can
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