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I've taught in highschools in the NW where the English teachers stated outright that it was the foreign language teachers' job to teach English grammar. Calilfornia schools are and have always been notorious for not teaching grammar at any level. I have young friends in highschool on the East Coast who don't get grammar and composition instruction. And I've taught at the university level, where the faculty complain about student research papers that are barely comprehensible. Universities now offer remedial writing and grammar classes to address this problem.
This makes no sense to me. Why are our schools churning out students who aren't competent to express themselves correctly in English? Is this a regional issue, or a school district issue?
I have a hard time believing that a HS English teacher would make the statement, "that it was the foreign language teachers' job to teach English grammar." Foreign language teachers are busy teaching the grammar specific to their foreign language. They should point out differences between the two languages, but that doesn't mean they teach English grammar.
HS English classes will typically not use a grammar textbook but that doesn't mean they are not teaching grammar. I could not imagine grading an essay without correcting grammar. Most of the rules of grammar should have been covered by the time a student finishes 9th grade. All of the schools I have encounterd in Pennsylvania, attempt to teach grammar in both elementary, and middle school or junior high.
It is true that students are graduating from college with poor grammar and writing skills. I have even seen people with MBAs and other graduate degrees with poor grammar and writing ability.
If state achievement tests don't specifically mandate assessments on grammar or sentence construction, schools won't "waste" the time teaching it.
Gotta cut things out to make room for teaching to the test, don't you know?
May I never have to work in public school.
Oh, the state achievement tests, I forgot. What was the excuse before "No Child Left Behind"? The no-grammar-teaching has been going on since the 50's, if not earlier, in some parts of the country. And isn't being able to write well part of the purpose of education? To turn out graduates who can read and write?
Very limited focus on grammar (other than making corrections, which is not the same as teaching the skills) at the high school level in the three states in which I have taught. It is assumed that the students received a good base (sometimes true) in elementary and middle school), and have retained the knowledge well enough to use it in an application-based format once writing at the high school level (definitely true in only maybe the top 10% of students).
As an English undergraduate student, my work study hours were spent in the department's writing center as a tutor, and it became clear at that point that many came to college without strong enough mastery of the skills to consistently apply them. There is definitely a breakdown in the way writing is taught. I suspect that the majority of students who emerge at the collegiate level as good writers are usually the ones who happen to naturally be strong writers, regardless of the quality of instruction they received earlier on (typically the ones who tend to read the most for pleasure). One of the most effective ways of learning to write well is through reading high-quality writing.
Oh, the state achievement tests, I forgot. What was the excuse before "No Child Left Behind"? The no-grammar-teaching has been going on since the 50's, if not earlier, in some parts of the country. And isn't being able to write well part of the purpose of education? To turn out graduates who can read and write?
As it happens, you're preaching to the choir re: poorly thought out government mandates.
I teach with Baby Boomers who can diagram sentences in their sleep. Easing away from teaching parts of speech in isolation/sentence diagramming really became a trend post-1960s, overall, when many topics in education began to move toward a more functional, wholistic model. These trends come and go, but the reality is that the most effective learning takes place somewhere in the middle. Not drilling/memorizing tidbits in isolation, not in embedding everything into an application-based model, but both. Learning the rules and basics, and reinforcing by applying them in a variety of ways.
What constitute best practices, unfortunately, go out the window when you are mandated to spend the majority of your instructional time doing test prep, under thread of loss of accreditation, etc. And the content of said tests is not necessarily reflective of what one ideally needs to learn to put one's education to use in society in a meaningful way.
Very limited focus on grammar (other than making corrections, which is not the same as teaching the skills) at the high school level in the three states in which I have taught. It is assumed that the students received a good base (sometimes true) in elementary and middle school), and have retained the knowledge well enough to use it in an application-based format once writing at the high school level (definitely true in only maybe the top 10% of students).
As an English undergraduate student, my work study hours were spent in the department's writing center as a tutor, and it became clear at that point that many came to college without strong enough mastery of the skills to consistently apply them. There is definitely a breakdown in the way writing is taught. I suspect that the majority of students who emerge at the collegiate level as good writers are usually the ones who happen to naturally be strong writers, regardless of the quality of instruction they received earlier on (typically the ones who tend to read the most for pleasure). One of the most effective ways of learning to write well is through reading high-quality writing.
I agree with most of what you said. I differ where you stated, "good writers are usually the ones who happen to naturally be strong writers, regardless of the quality of instruction they received earlier." I think the number of demanding English teachers that a student has makes all the difference. I had three very demanding Enlish teachers from 7th to 12th grade. They were the types who made lots of red ink corrections on your papers and made you rewrite your papers. My daughter had a very demanding English teacher in HS who she disliked at the time. After graduating from college, she said she would not have made it though college without having him in HS. She is now a teacher.
As it happens, you're preaching to the choir re: poorly thought out government mandates.
I teach with Baby Boomers who can diagram sentences in their sleep. Easing away from teaching parts of speech in isolation/sentence diagramming really became a trend post-1960s, overall, when many topics in education began to move toward a more functional, wholistic model. These trends come and go, but the reality is that the most effective learning takes place somewhere in the middle. Not drilling/memorizing tidbits in isolation, not in embedding everything into an application-based model, but both. Learning the rules and basics, and reinforcing by applying them in a variety of ways.
What constitute best practices, unfortunately, go out the window when you are mandated to spend the majority of your instructional time doing test prep, under thread of loss of accreditation, etc. And the content of said tests is not necessarily reflective of what one ideally needs to learn to put one's education to use in society in a meaningful way.
My last exposure to diagramming sentences was 1968.
This is news to me. The public school district my children attend teaches grammar at all grade levels. Elementary students use a resource published by Hogback Press entitled Daily Language Instruction. I cannot recall the names of the middle school and high school grammar workbooks, but I do know that my older children complete proofreading and editing exercises at least three times per week. Additionally, my oldest's writing assignments for all subjects must conform to the standards of The Elements of Style by Strunk & White. Primary and secondary students also complete WordlyWise workbooks to improve spelling and vocabulary competence. All of my kids have regular one-on-one meetings with their Language Arts teachers to review their writing drafts for content, grammar, and spelling.
Where are you at?
Our (upper end <snort>) school in Texas will not even give the kids Math or Science Books, and teach the kids that adjectives (they do not use that word) are actually called "salsa" words.
No Joke.
Outside of that happy bubble land you are in -- The US is a growing pit of ignorance.
I've never diagrammed a sentence in my life; I'm 53 and started school in 1964. Most of the more complex grammar concepts I learned either from a very old-school college English composition professor, or from learning foreign languages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamManager
Also, I believe the people (like my 52 year old mom) who has issues with grammar and spelling most likely have spelling disabilities that may not exist.
I don't know much about the history of public education nor do I believe that my generation was the only one experimented on in the classroom, but we were the guinea pigs for quite a few new educational concepts, including phonics. I have friends who can't spell to save their lives because of phonics.
Our (upper end <snort>) school in Texas will not even give the kids Math or Science Books, and teach the kids that adjectives (they do not use that word) are actually called "salsa" words.
No Joke.
Outside of that happy bubble land you are in -- The US is a growing pit of ignorance.
You can safely assume I do not live in Texas, and I will take it under advisement that our family should not take for granted the apparently exceptional language arts instruction provided by our school district. Thanks.
Salsa word is a new one for me, but I did find the following education article that may explain what your children are relaying to you about word choice: Fancy Words
Quote:
I have also used the phrase “rice cake and salsa words” to help remind students to be intentional in their word choice. I give each student pieces of bland rice cakes and sample-size cups of mild salsa. As they taste each, we talk about how we want to use salsa words, not rice cake words in their writing. We open up our writer’s notebooks and look for examples of rice cake words and try to replace them with salsa words.
When I was a child, my teachers used "dollar words" vs. "nickel words" to teach the same concept.
By the way, other than the child in elementary school my kids use on-line math texts; however, frequently they must do without copies of science, social studies, history, and civics texts for home use unless our family purchases them. Students in our district are also responsible for obtaining their own copies of any literature they study in high school, which may be purchased at the campus store run by the PTO.
Last edited by randomparent; 05-14-2012 at 12:55 PM..
I have a hard time believing that a HS English teacher would make the statement, "that it was the foreign language teachers' job to teach English grammar." Foreign language teachers are busy teaching the grammar specific to their foreign language. They should point out differences between the two languages, but that doesn't mean they teach English grammar.
HS English classes will typically not use a grammar textbook but that doesn't mean they are not teaching grammar. I could not imagine grading an essay without correcting grammar. Most of the rules of grammar should have been covered by the time a student finishes 9th grade. All of the schools I have encounterd in Pennsylvania, attempt to teach grammar in both elementary, and middle school or junior high.
It is true that students are graduating from college with poor grammar and writing skills. I have even seen people with MBAs and other graduate degrees with poor grammar and writing ability.
I believe HS English teachers skate on teaching grammar, and leave it up to the foreign language teachers. My university language classes were full of remedial English grammar instruction, because most students hadn't learned that in school. Those classes were such snoozers, I had to skip the two grammar days of the week to keep from going stir-crazy with boredom. My cousins had to teach themselves grammar and composition by reading a lot. But California's an extreme case.
There are HS grammar books that cover more complex elements of grammar and composition, like "parallel construction", "dangling participles", and that sort of thing. How to organize term papers, writing in different styles (expository, comedy, etc.) is what gets covered in a good HS, like the one randonparent describes. That sounds like an exceptional school.
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