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Shortly, I dont agree with you on these issues.
I am living at southern coast and if want to have some exotic culture on short distance, I dont go to Stockholm...Eastern Finland gives it to me little bit more than Stockholm.
Also, swedish is other official language in Finland, how you can say that language is dramatically different, specially when keeping in mind that on some areas of the country peoples are using more swedish than finnish and this is coming from the time when Finland was part of Sweden....Even my home town is built by swedish king and named by swedish queen and now you are telling that we have nothing common with swedish culture
I am talking about the Finnish language, and the Finnish people. Not the Fenno-Swedish minority that you are referring to. According to wikipedia the genes of Swedish speakers of Finland are much closer to Swedes than native Finns. These two groups are not the same, and when I talk about Finns, I don't include Fenno-Swedes, just like in the Swedish language the word Finne only means a Finnish speaker. People from Ã…land may be Finnish by their passports, but they are not Finns at all in anyone's opinion. Continental Fenno-Swedes see themselves as Finnish, but they still form a different identity group inside of Finland, and have their separate culture.
Apparently, you have a different definition for the word culture. The fact that Sweden "colonized" Finland and built cities on its coast, does not mean the cultures are related. Would you say that the Native-American cultures have much in common with Europeans because they built cities on their land? (Yes that is a bad example but you get the idea.).
What I, and most of the world see as culture is the ideas, traditions and beliefs of a group. The only thing we have in common with Swedish culture is religion, which was transported from Sweden to Finland, destroying the native religion of Finland (which was unique to Finns). I have a million examples of differences between these cultures, for example drinking-culture, social-behavior, work-place mentality, and behavior of the people in foreign countries. Of course there are similarities because of pure geographic reasons, but being neighboring countries, the cultures are dramatically different.
I don't agree that Western-Finnish culture is closer to Sweden than it is to the East. You probably are a Swedish speaker, or atleast live in an area where they are a significant group, and can not make a distinction between that and Finnish culture. In conclusion, you need to be careful with the terminology that you use, and I also get a feeling that you perhaps you are bias and can't look at it objectively.
I'm actually tending toward the conclusion that the Finns aren't a single population. I think there are Finno-Ugrian Finns, with features closer to the Sami, and there are Finns who are clearly Germanic. So if we say "the Finns" descended from the Sami, or from some sort of Finno-Ugrian stock, we should ask, "which Finns"? For now, I think the original inhabitants of Finland were Finno-Ugrians. Where those came from is a whole other question.
I think we have to be clear in what we mean by "Indo-European" and "Germanic", too. I-E means R1a/R1b, right? Whereas before the arrival of those, parts of Europe (including parts of Scandinavia) were populated by people belonging to Y-haplogroup "I", which, as I understand it, is found to a significant degree in the Sami. More info on this "I" group is needed, imo.
It gets very complicated. But when you say the Dutch and Poles are closer to the Finns than Uralic peoples, you're talking about R1a (right?), which is a relative late-comer to Europe.
Let me make one thing clear. Languages travel faster than people and genes. The Sami people according to newest knowledge are genetically close to the Basque people of Northern Spain. However, their language is from the Uralic group. Language and genes don't have to connect. Finns are very clearly not descendants of Sami people, they are two very different peoples genetically. That is a very stupid conclusion to make, and perhaps we should not make our own conclusions anyway, but learn from the people that study this topic for their living.
Western and Eastern Finns have a different genetical base, but the same language. It is a very strange thing that has always puzzled scientists. Both groups however are Finno-Ugric Finns. The only Germanic people living in Finland are descendants of Swedes that moved there in the last 700 years, which is a short time in development of genes.
I have a million examples of differences between these cultures, for example drinking-culture, social-behavior, work-place mentality, and behavior of the people in foreign countries. Of course there are similarities because of pure geographic reasons, but being neighboring countries, the cultures are dramatically different.
Please feel free to share! This is the topic of the thread, after all.
Please feel free to share! This is the topic of the thread, after all.
Alright.
I think the difference between the two cultures are pretty obvious when you look at the traditional literature. The Scandinavian Viking Sagas have nothing in common with the Finnish national epic, Kalevala. Kalevala is however similar to the epic of Estonians, Kalevipoeg. Pre-Christian religions were also very different. In Sweden the Viking religions, in Finland the traditional native religion. Language is the base of human culture, and as comparing these languages is like comparing English and Chinese, one can easily say that these cultures come from very different historical backgrounds.
Modern culture in these countries is also very different, although there are similarities too. These are just some things I personally have noticed, but they do represent the most common viewpoint in differences of Finland and Sweden, at least in Finland.
Finns are more quiet, more family-oriented, more shy, more humble, sometimes unsocial, melancholic. Finnish men are less emotional. Finnish and Swedish people also dress differently. Finns drink more alcohol and they drink more vodka and beer. Finnish industry is innovative, but not very good at branding itself. Finnish music is more melancholic. Finns are not as open to new things f.ex immigration.
Swedes are more social, smile more, are more outgoing, are more emotional (or show it more), Swedish drink less and the most popular drink in sweden according to statistics is Wine. Swedish products are world known for branding, and that goes to show that Swedish people are more proud/arrogant, but in a good way too. Swedish music is more joyful in general. Swedes are more open-minded, and f.ex over 10% of their people are immigrants not born in Sweden.
I am talking about the Finnish language, and the Finnish people. Not the Fenno-Swedish minority that you are referring to. According to wikipedia the genes of Swedish speakers of Finland are much closer to Swedes than native Finns. These two groups are not the same, and when I talk about Finns, I don't include Fenno-Swedes, just like in the Swedish language the word Finne only means a Finnish speaker. People from Ã…land may be Finnish by their passports, but they are not Finns at all in anyone's opinion. Continental Fenno-Swedes see themselves as Finnish, but they still form a different identity group inside of Finland, and have their separate culture.
Apparently, you have a different definition for the word culture. The fact that Sweden "colonized" Finland and built cities on its coast, does not mean the cultures are related. Would you say that the Native-American cultures have much in common with Europeans because they built cities on their land? (Yes that is a bad example but you get the idea.).
What I, and most of the world see as culture is the ideas, traditions and beliefs of a group. The only thing we have in common with Swedish culture is religion, which was transported from Sweden to Finland, destroying the native religion of Finland (which was unique to Finns). I have a million examples of differences between these cultures, for example drinking-culture, social-behavior, work-place mentality, and behavior of the people in foreign countries. Of course there are similarities because of pure geographic reasons, but being neighboring countries, the cultures are dramatically different.
I don't agree that Western-Finnish culture is closer to Sweden than it is to the East. You probably are a Swedish speaker, or atleast live in an area where they are a significant group, and can not make a distinction between that and Finnish culture. In conclusion, you need to be careful with the terminology that you use, and I also get a feeling that you perhaps you are bias and can't look at it objectively.
Seriously, swedish speakers are not swedish, they are finns, not ethnic or culture-minority (Even some of my friends
are orginal swedish speakers and trust me, its same culture).
They may be language minority but this dont mean that they are not finns and/or have different culture).
These guys/girls are my fellow citicens and like my brothers/sisters.
How you see those peoples who cant speak at all (Deaf/Silent), they are not finns because they dont
speak finnish?
And no, I am not swedish speaker at way as you may think (Sure I can swedish, not good but can communicate with it).
My grand grand grand grand father (From my fathers side) came from southern Sweden via Estonia and took wife from there and after that they both came to Finland.
My grand grand father and mother (From my mother side) came from Carelia.
So...What or who I am?
I have very old roots from Sweden,Estonia and Finland...I am not finn? Not swedish? Not estonian?
Well, sure I am finn, no question about that.
If you are looking exactly similar culture from two different country, you have endless search on your hands.
All countries around the world have a lot of different matters and cultures.
Only question is that how much similarities countries have, some have more and some have less.
Take a look example Germany and France...I am sure that Finland and Sweden have more similarities than Gernmany/France.
See the point?
Any way, most intresting parts of early history of Finland is under work on research and results seems to be quite shocking.
This study has started few yers ago and it is based on sagas of vikings (Vikings were very sharp with the history of roots).
Sagas are telling that early kings of vikings came from Finland (North-Western coast).
Lot of facts are supporting these sagas, example famous "Ulfberth" Viking swords was made in Finland (According latest knowledge) and if I remember right, only around 170 orginal sword has been found and from this amount, around 120 from Finland.
Lot of Viking swords in Finland but history knows that Vikings had never fight in Finland...Danish had few "Battle" trips here but they were not Vikings.
So this means that vikings were here like in home, maybe visiting at relatives and etc.
Here some links(Sorry, finnish only): Ulfberht miekka [500864] : Rautaportti.fi Rautakausi. Miekat.
Also Viking sagas contains lot of info how early finns came to Iceland,Norway and Sweden, how lands/areas was shared and who were relatives of Kings, etc.
From these days comes names with "Finn" (Persons and places), example "Thorfinnr Karlsefni"
This research will be very intresting and in future it will re-write history books totally new way.
Now back to the starting point.
When this whole research is ready (Sure it takes many years), can we then continue from this "Culture" issue?
I mean that it is possible that we need to discuss how swedish and norweigian cultures on early days are partly based to finnish culture because part of Vikings were finns....
Finally, from television is just now coming historial serie "Vikings" (Very well done, not like a some fantasy serie, this is based to Sagas) and even there was viking from Finland.
You wrote:
"The Scandinavian Viking Sagas have nothing in common with the Finnish national epic, Kalevala. "
Sorry to say but in fact they have.
Apparently, you have a different definition for the word culture. The fact that Sweden "colonized" Finland and built cities on its coast, does not mean the cultures are related. Would you say that the Native-American cultures have much in common with Europeans because they built cities on their land? (Yes that is a bad example but you get the idea.).
Ehe ehe. You probably know the suvivirsi-debate? It is considered the epitome of Finnish culture. Singing a traditional Christian song on the last day of school. Guess from what country that tradition comes from? A hint: the original name of the song is Den blomstertid nu kommer.
If you claim the Finnish culture has nothing in common with the Swedish, you apparently know nothing about Finnish culture.
Another example: what do you eat at Christmas? They eat all the same things in Sweden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhemberg
Alright.
I think the difference between the two cultures are pretty obvious when you look at the traditional literature. The Scandinavian Viking Sagas have nothing in common with the Finnish national epic, Kalevala. Kalevala is however similar to the epic of Estonians, Kalevipoeg. Pre-Christian religions were also very different. In Sweden the Viking religions, in Finland the traditional native religion. Language is the base of human culture, and as comparing these languages is like comparing English and Chinese, one can easily say that these cultures come from very different historical backgrounds.
Modern culture in these countries is also very different, although there are similarities too. These are just some things I personally have noticed, but they do represent the most common viewpoint in differences of Finland and Sweden, at least in Finland.
Finns are more quiet, more family-oriented, more shy, more humble, sometimes unsocial, melancholic. Finnish men are less emotional. Finnish and Swedish people also dress differently. Finns drink more alcohol and they drink more vodka and beer. Finnish industry is innovative, but not very good at branding itself. Finnish music is more melancholic. Finns are not as open to new things f.ex immigration.
Swedes are more social, smile more, are more outgoing, are more emotional (or show it more), Swedish drink less and the most popular drink in sweden according to statistics is Wine. Swedish products are world known for branding, and that goes to show that Swedish people are more proud/arrogant, but in a good way too. Swedish music is more joyful in general. Swedes are more open-minded, and f.ex over 10% of their people are immigrants not born in Sweden.
Actually Kalevala has a lot in common with the Norse sagas. Many of the ancient Finnish gods have clear similarities with the Norse ones as well.
Everything else you say are just old boring stereotypes. I show my emotions, I'm open to immigration and hate vodka. I'm a Finn. I seriously suggest you leave your hellhole to the modern world. Say, go to Helsinki and it might open your eyes.
BTW, Swedes drink wine because of alcohol politic reasons. They also drink the strongest beer in Europe. All because you can't get anything but folköl from stores, they tend to buy wine and strong beers from systembolaget.
Let me make one thing clear. Languages travel faster than people and genes. The Sami people according to newest knowledge are genetically close to the Basque people of Northern Spain. However, their language is from the Uralic group. Language and genes don't have to connect. Finns are very clearly not descendants of Sami people, they are two very different peoples genetically. That is a very stupid conclusion to make, and perhaps we should not make our own conclusions anyway, but learn from the people that study this topic for their living.
Western and Eastern Finns have a different genetical base, but the same language. It is a very strange thing that has always puzzled scientists. Both groups however are Finno-Ugric Finns. The only Germanic people living in Finland are descendants of Swedes that moved there in the last 700 years, which is a short time in development of genes.
RE: the Finn--Sami connection, it wasn't my own conclusion, it's the theory of someone at University of Texas (see earlier linked article) who studies this for a living.
Please provide a link for your claims about Sami genetics. There's a lot of conflicting info currently regarding the Sami genetic heritage. Stephen Oppenheimer has studied the genetics of the Sami, and says results indicate that some Sami share genetic markers with Basques and early Europeans (R1a and I ), but that there was a separate migration into Samiland from Ugric peoples around the Urals. This could explain the widely differing types observed in Samiland, but there may be other explanations (more recent European admixture, for one). N3 (more recently called N1c), a Finno-Ugric marker of Asian origin, is present in most, if not all, Sami.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 02-14-2014 at 12:47 PM..
Seriously, swedish speakers are not swedish, they are finns, not ethnic or culture-minority (Even some of my friends
are orginal swedish speakers and trust me, its same culture).
They may be language minority but this dont mean that they are not finns and/or have different culture).
These guys/girls are my fellow citicens and like my brothers/sisters.
So this is how wikipedia describes Fenno-Swedes as an ethnicity:
Suomenruotsalainen kielitieteilijä Leif Höckerstedt katsoo, että suomenruotsalaisuutta on mahdotonta tarkastella Ruotsista irrallaan olevana ilmiönä. Hänen mukaansa Suomen suomenkieliset ja ruotsinkieliset ovat sitoutuneet yhteisiin poliittisiin tavoitteisiin, mutta eivät jaa samaa etnistä identiteettiä. Höckerstedtin mukaan suomenruotsalaisesta etnisyydestä ei kuitenkaan haluta keskustella julkisesti.[16] Tutkija Charlotta Hedberg esittää, että suomenruotsalaisten yliedustus Suomen ja Ruotsin välisessä maahanmuutossa heijastelee yhteisön vähemmistöasemaa ja etnistä sidettä Ruotsiin.[17] Kansainvälisessä vähemmistöoikeuksia sivuavassa keskustelussa on myös esitetty, että suomenruotsalaisia voidaan tarkastella sekä etnisenä vähemmistönä että kansallisuutena. [18]
They are our fellow citizens, and they are Finnish just the same as any other group in Finland, but they are not part if the same ethnic group as Finnish speakers. However, obviously language is not the reason for these groups to be separate, but it is just the way that it has always been. A Finn can be a Finn even if he doesn't speak Finnish or is mute, because the term Finn is an ethnic term. The term is however most often used as a language term too, because the Finns as a group share the same language.
Your point about the similarities of Kalevala and Viking Sagas is interesting, and as they may have similarities, the Kalevala poetry measure and singing does not align with Viking Sagas at all.
I do not hate the Fenno-Swedes in Finland and of course they are fellow citizens, but as they agree themselves to be a separate ethnic group, and they have different genetical basis, there really is no point in trying to desperately to find a connection.
You keep mentioning this, but you don't give any description of it.
Defining everything would be a pain. I think you can google it and find your answers. Shortly: Finnish religion was animalistic, they believed in all kinds of spirits and Gods. For example they had a god for the forest, Tapio, and a god for water, Ahti.
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