Is EU middle-class poorer than the poor in the US? (Germans, university)
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It depends on which country. The middle class in the United States pays absurdly low taxes but complains about them endlessly. Call the median household income $60K as dead-center middle class. You pay 6.2% Social Security and 1.45% Medicare tax to make sure you have at least some income and health care when you're retired. $4,590. Married, you're in the 12% Federal income tax bracket. After your $24K standard deduction, you're paying about $4,000 in Federal income taxes. State income taxes are variable depending on the state. Let's call it California. You're in the 4% bracket paying about $2,000 in state income taxes. On $60K, you're taking home close to $50K. Your effective tax rate is less than 20%. The 7.25% California sales tax is way cheaper than VAT/GST anywhere in Europe. Food and consumer goods are far cheaper. Property taxes are limited to 1% of valuation.
You're not going to be able to live on $50K take home pay in Palo Alto or Santa Monica but there are plenty of places in California where that will buy a condo or a starter house.
In the United States, the top-10% bear most of the tax burden. The current round of US politics is all about slashing social services so the top-10% pay less taxes. In Europe, the middle bears a much larger fraction of the tax burden.
Maybe that is where me and some poster differ - what is considered middle class by gross income?
You're not going to be able to live on $50K take home pay in Palo Alto or Santa Monica but there are plenty of places in California where that will buy a condo or a starter house.
In the United States, the top-10% bear most of the tax burden. The current round of US politics is all about slashing social services so the top-10% pay less taxes. In Europe, the middle bears a much larger fraction of the tax burden.
$50k is not a middle class salary in California. It was in the news recently that the poverty threshold for families in parts of California is $120.000. You will probably not starve on $50k but that's most definitively lower class. In addition, food, healthcare, education, housing are very expensive in California and also much more expensive than Europe.
there are many obvious reasons why the middle class are endlessly harvested for revenue .
the super rich are mobile and have huge influence over policy makers , this has always been the case . things are different for the very rich - wealthy.
in my own country and i dont know what its like in other european countries , all the media outlets , academic institutions and QUANGO,s are fervently left wing , these people know they cannot do much about the 1% but they absolutely loathe the middle class , they champion every welfare scrounging waster as some sort of anti establishment hero , take for example irish travelers , a more violent , feckless , ignorant and irresponsible bunch of savages you could hope to not ever meet , that group of delightful folk are darlings of the media and academic fraternity in ireland , despite the fact that 80% of travelers are offically unemployed and despite only making up 0.5% of the population , make up 15% of the prison population . a traveler couple with six kids ( that would be a small family for them ) can take home the equivellent of 90 k euro gross in benefits and still the media and academia in ireland scream that the middle are paying too little in taxes and our traveler friends are the " vulnerable "
the media in ireland are bolsheveiks to the last man and woman who never forgave the middle classes for turning their back on the drive for socialism , i dont mean social democracy , i mean pure red communism , i dont like the american system where honest hard workers can end up in bankruptcy due to some scumbag health insurance guy having decided they are not covered for whatever arbitary reason but in my own country , the welfare state is completely out of control, i dont know which country strikes a good balance, my hunch is germany as the uk does seem a little miserly towards people in very poor situations despite having a free health service , in ireland you can remain on the same level of unemployment benefit twenty years after you loose your job as twenty days , even in sweden , that isnt the case , generations of families in ireland ( and all travelers ) often have more money than lower middle class folk.
It depends on which country. The middle class in the United States pays absurdly low taxes but complains about them endlessly. Call the median household income $60K as dead-center middle class. You pay 6.2% Social Security and 1.45% Medicare tax to make sure you have at least some income and health care when you're retired. $4,590. Married, you're in the 12% Federal income tax bracket. After your $24K standard deduction, you're paying about $4,000 in Federal income taxes. State income taxes are variable depending on the state. Let's call it California. You're in the 4% bracket paying about $2,000 in state income taxes. On $60K, you're taking home close to $50K. Your effective tax rate is less than 20%. The 7.25% California sales tax is way cheaper than VAT/GST anywhere in Europe. Food and consumer goods are far cheaper. Property taxes are limited to 1% of valuation.
You're not going to be able to live on $50K take home pay in Palo Alto or Santa Monica but there are plenty of places in California where that will buy a condo or a starter house.
In the United States, the top-10% bear most of the tax burden. The current round of US politics is all about slashing social services so the top-10% pay less taxes. In Europe, the middle bears a much larger fraction of the tax burden.
It sounds like you completely missed the fact that I was addressing the European posters on the thread.
Because it is the largest group that is easy to take money from. The number of truly rich people, even upper middle class, is very small in the Netherlands and they are much more mobile than the impoverished middle class. There already has been an exodus of rich and upper middle class people to Brasschaat and more exotic locations abroad. There simply isn't anybody else to take money from.
the media in ireland are bolsheveiks to the last man and woman who never forgave the middle classes for turning their back on the drive for socialism , i dont mean social democracy , i mean pure red communism , i dont like the american system where honest hard workers can end up in bankruptcy due to some scumbag health insurance guy having decided they are not covered for whatever arbitary reason but in my own country , the welfare state is completely out of control, i dont know which country strikes a good balance, my hunch is germany as the uk does seem a little miserly towards people in very poor situations despite having a free health service , in ireland you can remain on the same level of unemployment benefit twenty years after you loose your job as twenty days , even in sweden , that isnt the case , generations of families in ireland ( and all travelers ) often have more money than lower middle class folk.
That's not why people end up in bankruptcy from medical debt, typically. Yes, there are those cases. But even more damning, really, is the fact that people end up in bankruptcy, because they can't afford the CO-PAYS to their insurance, AFTER insurance has paid its share of hospital bills, surgeon bills, anesthetist bill. Also the doctor bill, for visiting you in the hospital. All separate bills. Insurance typically pays around 80%. That remaining 20% can bankrupt you, depending on the type of surgery. I knew a couple, both members of whom needed back surgery. The co-pays wiped them out. They put everything on their credit cards, then had to sell their home to pay off the debt.
My sister-in-law just recently had to postpone her retirement for a year, in order to be able to afford the co-pays from a heart surgery my brother is facing, next year. I worry about their retirement planning, if already she's having to work an extra year, just to pay for one surgery. She's a nurse, and he's on her insurance, btw. I guess that's another reason she had to postpone her retirement; to keep the "good" insurance, vs. the Medicare he would be on, if not for her employment.
That's not why people end up in bankruptcy from medical debt, typically. Yes, there are those cases. But even more damning, really, is the fact that people end up in bankruptcy, because they can't afford the CO-PAYS to their insurance, AFTER insurance has paid its share of hospital bills, surgeon bills, anesthetist bill. Also the doctor bill, for visiting you in the hospital. All separate bills. Insurance typically pays around 80%. That remaining 20% can bankrupt you, depending on the type of surgery. I knew a couple, both members of whom needed back surgery. The co-pays wiped them out. They put everything on their credit cards, then had to sell their home to pay off the debt.
My sister-in-law just recently had to postpone her retirement for a year, in order to be able to afford the co-pays from a heart surgery my brother is facing, next year. I worry about their retirement planning, if already she's having to work an extra year, just to pay for one surgery. She's a nurse, and he's on her insurance, btw. I guess that's another reason she had to postpone her retirement; to keep the "good" insurance, vs. the Medicare he would be on, if not for her employment.
does it matter what percentage is covered exactly and what not? They end up in bankruptcy because they got sick, period.
Payed lots of money for ensurance and went bankrupt anyways. To me it seems outragous that it's even legal for a hospital to do that
That's not why people end up in bankruptcy from medical debt, typically. Yes, there are those cases. But even more damning, really, is the fact that people end up in bankruptcy, because they can't afford the CO-PAYS to their insurance, AFTER insurance has paid its share of hospital bills, surgeon bills, anesthetist bill. Also the doctor bill, for visiting you in the hospital. All separate bills. Insurance typically pays around 80%. That remaining 20% can bankrupt you, depending on the type of surgery.....
That happened to me in the Seventies. I was thirty-seven, mediocre job and relatively small savings. Surgery wiped it out, and I needed to borrow....and pay back, of course, to avoid bankruptcy. Two years later the same story, except this time I had to borrow most of it from two relatives, and pay back in dribs and drabs. So, not putting anything into savings again.
does it matter what percentage is covered exactly and what not? They end up in bankruptcy because they got sick, period.
Payed lots of money for ensurance and went bankrupt anyways. To me it seems outragous that it's even legal for a hospital to do that
Yes, of course it matters what percent they have to pay. If only 5%, that would be affordable. They didn't go bankrupt because they got sick (depending on the type of work and employer), because many jobs offer sick leave and even extended disability leave. They go bankrupt because they end up owing tens of thousands of dollars in co-pays, and that debt carries interest, as well, so if they can't keep up even with the interest, the debt will grow.
Charges for surgery can vary widely from one hospital to the next in the same city or region, too; there's no standardization of fees. A public hospital would be much cheaper than a private one, for example.
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