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Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
I think its more of the opposite in that the so called northern culture is spilling over into Virginia than the other way around. Northern Virginia is a perfect example of that.
As for your map, if we were living in pre-1860's America then you would probably have a legitimate case but we are not living in that time period. We are talking about modern times between where the true North/South dividing line is located. You can argue all day about the southern influence in Southern Maryland but that doesn't change the fact that Maryland as a whole leans more Northern than Southern. If anything the state is Mid-Atlantic.
Very well put. Same thing with Missouri leaning more toward the Midwest and Delaware leaning more toward the Northeast.
On the flip side, Kentucky and West Virginia actually are more southern today than they were during the Civil War. Kentucky went from a state that was divided in loyalties to a state that was overwhelming southern after the Civil War when returning Confederates essentially took control of the state. About a third of West Virginia is more Mid-Atlantic/Midwest (above Highway 50), but overall it is southern. Kentucky except for the part jutting up into Cincinnati is decisively southern. Louisville and Lexington, for being so close Indianapolis and Cincinnati, have much more in common with Nashville, Richmond, and Charlotte and not much at all in common with the former two.
You're using pre-Civil War history to pinpoint what's southern and what isn't....for states that were border states during the Civil War, that is the least reliable method. I can tell you for a fact that where I live is not the south in any way, shape, or form. The crops grown in Missouri back then are either no longer grown in the state or they are confined to the far southeastern portion...and regardless, Missouri and Maryland both stayed in the Union during the Civil War, and sent more troops to the Confederacy.
Again, no, I am not using pre-Civil War history to justify my opinion. I wish posters would re-read if necessary. However, history is one facet, and Maryland was Southern as a whole for half of its existence. This is well documented. Maryland was one of the SOUTHERN colonies along with Virginia. Every single academic reference to the colonies states this fact. The two Southern Chesapeake Colonies. Both wholly dependent on the slave trade and tobacco for their existence. It was only in the 1850s and 60s when the state's identity was split. And, sure Maryland stayed in the Union - in part because it was forced to. And, I'm not sure what your point is because parts of Missouri are historically and still Southern, just like parts of Maryland. Please don't argue Civil War history of Virginia or Maryland with me. It would be a fruitless effort for you and would not be the topic of this thread. In fact, we should wrap this discussion up. My last post was extremely reasonable. I said Maryland is NOT SOUTHERN in its entirety but, some parts are, yes! Whether you believe it or not. I have a firm grasp on the identity of my state of 40-some years. The state as a whole is Mid-Atlantic, the most populated parts and the western portion swing Northeastern, while Southern MD and the Lower Eastern Shore swing Southern. For a majority of people, this would be common sense.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,097,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99
Again, no, I am not using pre-Civil War history to justify my opinion. I wish posters would re-read if necessary. However, history is one facet, and Maryland was Southern as a whole for half of its existence. This is well documented. Maryland was one of the SOUTHERN colonies along with Virginia. Every single academic reference to the colonies states this fact. The two Southern Chesapeake Colonies. Both wholly dependent on the slave trade and tobacco for their existence. It was only in the 1850s and 60s when the state's identity was split. And, sure Maryland stayed in the Union - in part because it was forced to. And, I'm not sure what your point is because parts of Missouri are historically and still Southern, just like parts of Maryland. Please don't argue Civil War history of Virginia or Maryland with me. It would be a fruitless effort for you and would not be the topic of this thread. In fact, we should wrap this discussion up. My last post was extremely reasonable. I said Maryland is NOT SOUTHERN in its entirety but, some parts are, yes! Whether you believe it or not. I have a firm grasp on the identity of my state of 40-some years. The state as a whole is Mid-Atlantic, the most populated parts and the western portion swing Northeastern, while Southern MD and the Lower Eastern Shore swing Southern. For a majority of people, this would be common sense.
I don't know where you read that I denied Missouri historically having parts that were southern, but I never said that. And yes, I agree, some parts are still southern today, but the state overall is decidedly midwestern. The far southeast portion of the state below Cape Girardeau, roughly along U.S. Highway 60, and into the bootheel, IS southern. But, the Civil War and afterwards essentially made the relevance of what these states were prior to the Civil War much less. These states are both more Northern than Southern on a modern standpoint...and not nearly split enough to where I'd question where they lay today. There is no indication that Maryland was legitimately forced to stay in the Union...martial law was imposed, but the state was split at the very minimum. The amounts of soldiers that supported the Confederacy were about a third of those that enlisted in the Union. 20,000 for the Confederacy I believe, 60,000 for the Union.
These states are both more Northern than Southern on a modern standpoint...
Bottom line is, I hope you are aware, I am not arguing that Maryland is a Southern state as a whole today. It was Southern, in its entirety, for a major chunk of its history. Today, as a whole, it is Mid-Atlantic with two regions (roughly 1/3 of the state) that arestill Southern (similar to Missouri). That's all I've been trying to say...
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,097,146 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99
Bottom line is, I hope you are aware, I am not arguing that Maryland is a Southern state as a whole today. It was Southern, in its entirety, for a major chunk of its history. Today, as a whole, it is Mid-Atlantic with two regions (roughly 1/3 of the state) that arestill Southern (similar to Missouri). That's all I've been trying to say...
That's fine, but that's still enough criteria to include it in the Mid-Atlantic. 1/3 is a minority of the state...if it was 1/2 I'd consider it impossible to classify. But if it's 2/3 MidAtlantic, that's grounds for considering it Mid-Atlantic if forced to choose one or the other.
That's fine, but that's still enough criteria to include it in the Mid-Atlantic. 1/3 is a minority of the state...if it was 1/2 I'd consider it impossible to classify. But if it's 2/3 MidAtlantic, that's grounds for considering it Mid-Atlantic if forced to choose one or the other.
I already said that the state as a whole is Mid-Atlantic about 8 times. I agree with what you are saying. What are you arguing with me?
I am simply saying, if someone comes here and says they live in the South and he/she resides in Southern Maryland or the Lower Eastern Shore, that's a valid statement.
Indeed. I am from Southern Maryland. I called that southern. I wouldn't call Havre de Grace southern.
Perhaps US-50 (what stlouisan has mentioned a couple times) is the dividing line east of where US-50 meets The Ohio. Though I would extend the border a bit up on the eastern shore because US-50 goes weird ways there.
The border between Southern and Mid-Atlantic states is the Potomac, however the line between Southern and Mid-Atlantic culture is not.
It should also be noted that many Southern Marylanders like myself have a different definition of Mid-Atlantic than the dominant one on this site. To us it's synonymous with the Chesapeake and Delmarva but the usage is different here.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,097,146 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
Indeed. I am from Southern Maryland. I called that southern. I wouldn't call Havre de Grace southern.
Perhaps US-50 (what stlouisan has mentioned a couple times) is the dividing line east of where US-50 meets The Ohio. Though I would extend the border a bit up on the eastern shore because US-50 goes weird ways there.
The border between Southern and Mid-Atlantic states is the Potomac, however the line between Southern and Mid-Atlantic culture is not.
It should also be noted that many Southern Marylanders like myself have a different definition of Mid-Atlantic than the dominant one on this site. To us it's synonymous with the Chesapeake and Delmarva but the usage is different here.
Virginia is not the Mid-Atlantic. Grouping it in the same category as Pennsylvania outside of Northern Virginia makes no sense.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,097,146 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99
I already said that the state as a whole is Mid-Atlantic about 8 times. I agree with what you are saying. What are you arguing with me?
I am simply saying, if someone comes here and says they live in the South and he/she resides in Southern Maryland or the Lower Eastern Shore, that's a valid statement.
Virginia is not the Mid-Atlantic. Grouping it in the same category as Pennsylvania outside of Northern Virginia makes no sense.
You misunderstand. The definition I've heard most often of "Mid Atlantic" in Southern Maryland includes Virginia in the Mid-Atlantic but not PA or NJ. It includes MD, DE, and VA and is more geographical than anything else. A different definition of the term is common there, that's all i'm saying. I am not claiming Virginia is Mid-Atlantic by the more common definition.
Read again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
It should also be noted that many Southern Marylanders like myself have a different definition of Mid-Atlantic than the dominant one on this site. To us it's synonymous with the Chesapeake and Delmarva but the usage is different here.
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I already said that the state as a whole is Mid-Atlantic about 8 times. I agree with what you are saying. What are you arguing with me?
