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No I am not that intelligent.....explain to me what the difference is? Maybe you don't understand how racism has sucked opportunity from blacks past and present.....just as politics may suck opportunity and earnings from people via its policies and practices. If a black person comes on here and present bullet points about what racism has done to blacks.....they are attacked as whinners. A white person presents bullet points about how Washington politics hurt people and they get a thumbs up.
I don't think someone posting well thought out, accurate bullet points of that nature, such as for example the effect of redlining on black home-ownership rates, the racism inherent in the combination of the existence of historical discrimination and the use of legacy in college admission decisions, the impact of the "war on drugs" and disproportionate sentencing during the crack epidemic on african-american famlies, etc. would be received poorly. In fact, I think the response would be pretty positive. It's when people say poorly-thought out and clearly wrong stuff, like blaming slavery for black/white educational gaps that people go .
Of course, there is also the aspect that the existence of affirmative action and affirmative-action-like programs poisons the well for debate. The undertext of nonspecific complaints, is that responding with a second-wrong; i.e. racially-targeted discriminatory, zero-sum policies, is the preferred policy of the person. When general statements have the undertext, "and this is why I support racial discrimination against you," it makes arguments about generalities (as opposed to specifics, which can dodge the issue) very difficult.
To draw a contrast to my post above about political/class issues, the undertext is "and this is why I support raising capital gains tax, lowering payroll tax, and cutting welfare spending," which, unless you expect to subsist on public benefits for most of your life or are a multimillionaire, not very threatening, and even to the people whose interests it DOES threaten, merely something they personally don't want, not something immoral and/or racism directed at them.
Last edited by ALackOfCreativity; 04-23-2011 at 12:15 PM..
Reason: spelling
What you ignore is that it was a government OF THE WHITE PEOPLE, BY THE WHITE PEOPLE and FOR THE WHITE PEOPLE. This is a representitive REPUBLIC. Hence, when the people are racist the government is going to represent/reflect those racist interest. People SHOULD hold the government responsible because it is the entity that is still in existance and hence can be held responsible for its wrongs. The whites who owned slaves are all dead....but the government that faciliated and organized it is still around.
You are aware of course that the leader of the free world is African-American. Freely elected by millions of voters including Whites I might add.
No I am not that intelligent.....explain to me what the difference is? Maybe you don't understand how racism has sucked opportunity from blacks past and present.....just as politics may suck opportunity and earnings from people via its policies and practices. If a black person comes on here and present bullet points about what racism has done to blacks.....they are attacked as whinners. A white person presents bullet points about how Washington politics hurt people and they get a thumbs up.
The difference is, Washington politics hurt all but the very rich and influential. There IS no distinction in color. If you have it and they want it, it's theirs for the taking. It isn't just Washington politics, but state politics as well. No one is disputing that blacks got the shaft. No one is disputing that profound racism is still completely out of control in some parts of our country...well, not people with a lick of common sense, anyway. For those who are living in those areas, if they can get OUT, get out of there! If not, do what you can to get together...unite and form your own businesses....your own corporations! Beat the #$@!$#@! at their own game!
Now is what we need to be focusing on though, not attempting to go back in history and reaping the benefits of our ancestors' suffering. Native Americans have received financial retribution..yes, they have, but that is an entirely different situation. This land was theirs. Treaties were signed, promises made and those promises were broken. The funny thing about time though, is you can't hit rewind and go back and change anything. All you can do is learn from the past and move forward.
I don't think someone posting well thought out, accurate bullet points of that nature, such as for example the effect of redlining on black home-ownership rates, the racism inherent in the combination of the existence of historical discrimination and the use of legacy in college admission decisions, the impact of the "war on drugs" and disproportionate sentencing during the crack epidemic on african-american famlies, etc. would be received poorly. In fact, I think the response would be pretty positive. It's when people say poorly-thought out and clearly wrong stuff, like blaming slavery for black/white educational gaps that people go .
well....who becomes the arbiter of well thought out and articulate? What I have found to be true is that the well thought out and articulate stuff is simply ignored, obfuscated or misdirected.
Why is suggesting a link between slavery/Jim Crow and black white educational gaps clearly wrong? Every action creates a reaction. What was the reaction upon blacks to years of denigration on their beliefs about themselves? Its one thing to admit that many oppressesive acts were inflicted upon blacks, because that is public record, however, what not often spoken are the reactions and impact that those actions manifested. Admitting actions while dismissing any talk of reactions (current conditions) makes no sense, because the present is the reaction to the past.
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Of course, there is also the aspect that the existence of affirmative action and affirmative-action-like programs poisons the well for debate. The undertext of nonspecific complaints, is that responding with a second-wrong; i.e. racially-targeted discriminatory, zero-sum policies, is the preferred policy of the person. When general statements have the undertext, "and this is why I support racial discrimination against you," it makes arguments about generalities (as opposed to specifics, which can dodge the issue) very difficult.
Such is a red herring. Black unemployment and poverty are multiple times that of whites and blacks are only 13% of the population. Thus, mathematically its hardly something impacting a significant number of whites or holding whites back. White women have been the biggest benefactors of Affirmative Action.
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To draw a contrast to my post above about political/class issues, the undertext is "and this is why I support raising capital gains tax, lowering payroll tax, and cutting welfare spending," which, unless you expect to subsist on public benefits for most of your life or are a multimillionaire, not very threatening, and even to the people whose interests it DOES threaten, merely something they personally don't want, not something immoral and/or racism directed at them.
Again, my point was and is that policies and practices taken up by the government or by people can radically impact upon opportunities for people to make it in this world.....regardless of how hard you work or how personally responsible you are. Many whites left Europe because they could not prosper, despite hard work and responsibility, because of issues of class and religion. That has been the story of Blacks in America, where race became a system of preference along with class. Whites did not really pull themselves up from oppression among their oppressors. Rather, they embarked upon new lands and created new systems where they do unto others (non whites) as what was done to them in the land of their oppression.
I appreciate your compliment and am I am glad to see lots of intelligent folks like you in the debate, including people I disagree with like Indentured Servant. Disagreement from smart, thoughtful posters (unlike the emotional one liners in the Politics forum) keep me on my toes and challenge my opinions.
I do agree about reminding people of the topic at hand, but 64 pages is more than enough of reminders without detailed solutions and is becoming counterproductive at this point. At some point, the audience you are trying to reach will get tired of being beat over the head with the idea of White Supremacy if nothing concrete is being offered. It's the same reason many of all races are tired of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; they are always long on rhetoric and short on solutions and fail to show they are taking the lead in fixing things on their own.
I do believe individual Blacks do have some personal responsibility in the problems of the 25% poor, especially in the areas of ghetto culture, parenting, and lack of embracing education.
However, I do believe that outside policies also contribute, especially government programs that subsidize and incentivize bad choices, and the blowback of the criminalization of drugs that contributes to the high crime in certain areas (gangs and turf wars). Minimum wage laws also price poor young Blacks out of the easy to obtain entry-level jobs they used to do in the past, and those roles are filled by both legal and illegal immigrants. Less access to jobs makes money driven young folks who see no future in education an easy choice to join a gang or sell drugs.
In regards to your solution: How exactly do you achieve it? What are some concrete steps you suggest? In my opinion, the best way to get rid of "white supremacy" and "black diabolism" is to do what Asians to lose their negative minority stereotypes, educate and succeed through strong work ethic without help from the government or others.
I tried to look up the false crimes thing, but came up short. Please point me in the right the direction and I'd be happy to assist.
I'm actually still thinking of different ways in which to bring about some type of repair.
The big one involves education and the "Black church." Me personally, I'm actually buying books (and keeping the books that I bought in college) and printing out different pieces that dealing with history. My goal is to give a free remedial education to those who are interested. That's concept that I want to bring about because the education that the poor's getting is mostly remedial...let's make them all gifted.
I have to go but it would help if the Black mega churches used that 10% the way that it was intended: helping the poor and those who are in need. It would be great if those churches can provide a "private school" type of education to those who are in bad financial shape. They have the money, that's for sure but does the preacher really need 2 RR's, a Bentley, and 3 mansions? One great solution would be to give the young poor Blacks a top notch education. Of course, there would be problems because the wealthy parishioners would want the best for themselves...like I say, stop trying to "be American" (mindset wise).
Really? It was a government for ALL the white people? Take a look at everythng else that was going on at the time. While the government was allowing people to purchase PEOPLE and own them, they were turning their backs on the obvious...there were other white people out there who had no means of supporting their WHITE families. Meanwhile, the cotton industry was thriving in the South, which meant the textile mills up north were also booming. How many WHITE children died or were maimed... farmed out for pennies, so that their WHITE families could eat? Where DO you think those child labor laws came from!?
If you really want to "get on with your life", you will stop playing the victim card, wake up and realize that blacks were not the only victims. Those that HAD the money and no conscience were using ALL people, regardless of race. Something that always blows me away as well, and I've already mentioned it, is that it was AFRICANS who were rounding up AFRICANS and trading or selling them to the slave traders! It is AFRICAN AMERICANS who are enslaving AFRICAN AMERICANS, recruiting them into gangs and keeping them from bettering themselves. STOP this craziness. At some point, we have to start taking responsibility for our own futures.
We ALL wail at government regulations, government control, government spending....and yet what are you saying! The GOVERNMENT needs to step in and DO something! No WE THE PEOPLE need to step in and DO something! WE need to make the changes.
Excellent point. One must remember that those who ran the northern mills which made southern cotton valuable were using immigrant labor. They didn't buy them but found something cheaper. They neither supplied food or housing but a tiny wage, sufficent for a run down tenamint if most of the family was working. Women took in wash and sewing to filll in on their off hours. Children worked and should someone be ill or hurt they got nothing. If the family ended up on the street they found new bodies to hire. It was not slavery but it was slave conditions.
It's been suggested that in time the South would have figured out that instead of buying human beings and taking care of babies and old people, providing food, etc, that if they paid something small to the ones who worked it would be cheaper and this would have replaced slavery.
If this had happened (as it later did with tenant farming) would this be a cause for reperations? It was clearly not owning the workers, just renting them almost free so long as they could work. If you pay nearly nothing and the workers can't really quit because there isn't much else to try, is it okay to exploit people?
If so... and you count later generations as eligable .... Then someone owes the descendents of the Irish and Italian and Eastern European and so on immigrants for the "fair" pay their ancestors didn't get too.
And yes, playing the victum card will guarentee that you will forever remain one. But you will feel quite justified about it when people tell you to get a life.
Excellent point. One must remember that those who ran the northern mills which made southern cotton valuable were using immigrant labor. They didn't buy them but found something cheaper. They neither supplied food or housing but a tiny wage, sufficent for a run down tenamint if most of the family was working. Women took in wash and sewing to filll in on their off hours. Children worked and should someone be ill or hurt they got nothing. If the family ended up on the street they found new bodies to hire. It was not slavery but it was slave conditions.
It's been suggested that in time the South would have figured out that instead of buying human beings and taking care of babies and old people, providing food, etc, that if they paid something small to the ones who worked it would be cheaper and this would have replaced slavery.
If this had happened (as it later did with tenant farming) would this be a cause for reperations? It was clearly not owning the workers, just renting them almost free so long as they could work. If you pay nearly nothing and the workers can't really quit because there isn't much else to try, is it okay to exploit people?
If so... and you count later generations as eligable .... Then someone owes the descendents of the Irish and Italian and Eastern European and so on immigrants for the "fair" pay their ancestors didn't get too.
And yes, playing the victum card will guarentee that you will forever remain one. But you will feel quite justified about it when people tell you to get a life.
Some had already resorted to this "tenant farming" with their slaves, before the slaves were "freed". They were given their own little plots of land to farm in exchange for working on the plantations.
And yes, where are the reparations for those immigrant families who worked for pennies or were paid with vouchers, which could be redeemed at company stores. No, it caused those people to get away as quickly as they could, in order to better provide for their families. Playing the victim gets you no where. Climbing your butt out of the hole and getting resourceful, developing as many marketable skills as humanly possible is the only way to guarantee your independence (or something close to it).
Some had already resorted to this "tenant farming" with their slaves, before the slaves were "freed". They were given their own little plots of land to farm in exchange for working on the plantations.
And yes, where are the reparations for those immigrant families who worked for pennies or were paid with vouchers, which could be redeemed at company stores. No, it caused those people to get away as quickly as they could, in order to better provide for their families. Playing the victim gets you no where. Climbing your butt out of the hole and getting resourceful, developing as many marketable skills as humanly possible is the only way to guarantee your independence (or something close to it).
Post war, convict gangs proved a very cheap alternative also. There was no need to deal with children or families at all. And the tenant system was just as much white as black. It was all about finding ways to exploit those who could be used.
I keep reading that culture is learned, but it can also be unlearned. It takes the individual choosing to do so or not. Those who chose not to do so at their own risk when culture becomes destructive.
Maybe ten years ago, a group started a self-help "store" in Watts. They had books to read for free. They had tutoring and free unlimited internet. The object was to draw in those who were wandering the streets and get them off a destination leading towards nothing. Some did and did well, but despite it being free of charge they had few takers. It was too "white" or other considerations to most of the gangsters.
Sorry but I can't feel sorry for those who missed opportunities. You make your own choices. Bad ones that lead you nowhere are your problem. I was homeless for a short while, and the thing which was the saddest were those who gave up and bought into the lifestyle, ignored the help offered, and are probalby still out there wandering. But it was THEIR choice and they live with it. I won't be out there telling them to change their minds. Nobody can change your mind unless you choose to first.
I Think David is right when he says that people need to be reminded, FIRST, how we arrived at this point. There are a lot of young people, both white and black, who live life in the vacuum of the present and not knowing how the present was created by events of the past. Actions begat reactions and people need to understand that the present is simply the reaction to the past. Thus, in order to make sense of the present one must first know the past.
Good evening,
60 plus pages of back and forth with the same points and counter points should be enough of a reminder. You, your supporters, and your opponents are repeating yourselves on every page. At this point I'm only interested in hearing what solutions you and other reparations advocates are willing to put forward. If you're not going to convince the opposing side by now with reminders, maybe it's time to try to enlighten them or people on the fence with concrete solutions. So far I have not seen an attempt besides very generic "invest in the black community" statements in one or two posts in this long thread.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
You argue, implicitly, that reparations are dead in the water and have no chance at ever coming into fruition, so in your mind it’s NOT a solution. However, you never state the reason why it’s dead in the water, which is white push back and resistance. Thus, the quagmire is this. The race of people who has consistently been against us are now, in effect, the arbiters of our “Solutions”. In other words, given that we live under a majority rule political construct, no solution is a viable solution unless the white majority is accepting of it. If whites are not accepting of it then the solution is not feasable. You cannot have a solution when when the fox is guarding the hen house.
My personal opinion on reparations doesn't mean I'm not open to hearing solutions from you and other advocates. I am always open minded to things I may not accept, and can always change my mind if I am convinced. Yes I do agree that whites will not vote for it, but I will not attribute it to 100% racism. There are valid arguments for people whose ancestors came after slavery or families lived poverty inside the South for generations, or lived in Northern states and didn't own slaves. Yes, I do understand your argument that the entire country benefited. But I can use that same logic to say that Blacks also benefited from the current state of American society compared to Blacks' plight in other areas of the world, especially in the last 30 years. Either way, none of that matters, we've rehashed the same points, so can you please start posting actual solutions so we can move the debate forward?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
]In light of this, it’s clear that there can never be a solution as long as whites are the majority and as long as so many of them are racist. Any efforts by black people to manifest a collective unity to lift up our people will give whites rationalization and cover to do it too. If blacks can support black businesses and favor black businesses, and that legally stands, then it opens the door legally for whites to do the same. Don’t you see how this works? Whites are using jujitsu. Whites understand that black people can be helped if they are “TARGETED” for help, just like we were hurt by racial targeting. However, whites are now using the laws that were created in response to blacks being targeted for hurt, to keep blacks from being targeted for help.
The problem with targeting Blacks is that it is also racist and discriminatory against other Americans who are poor, non-Black, and did not benefit from so-called "white privilege". It is also ineffective to do so, as many elite, well educated, and middle / upper class Blacks like you and me would benefit from the "targeting". I am not willing to discriminate against other Americans based on skin color simply because it was done to my ancestors. Why do you not instead advocate for a comprehensive program that targets poverty and education for EVERYONE? Once again, I would rather talk about solutions than go back and forth about this for another 60 plus pages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
In other words, in effect, if blacks cannot be targeted to be put down, as was the case for over 300 years, then whites will not allow blacks to be targeted for uplift (recovery from the put down). The end result by intent of effect is the preservation of white supremacy. The constant impact, if not intent, of the majority white belief and opinion ALWAYS results in the preservation of white supremacy in reality. Black people will cease to rise with an “individualistic” mentality and whites will counter any collective mentality or actions by using that as a pretext to further discriminate against black people on the bases that if blacks can focus on their collective, legally, then whites have the right to do the same.
The flaw in your argument is that Blacks do not need to be targeted for uplift as a group based on skin color. Only 25% of Blacks are in poverty, and that number is only so high because of the 40% single parent home poverty rate! Married Blacks' poverty rate is 8%, very close to married whites at 5%. Why do the 75% Blacks who are doing well need to be targeted if they are not in poverty? Once again, targeting poverty for all Americans is a better, and more politically feasible plan than a race-based one.
For argument's sake, let's say I accepted everything you said as gospel, what do you now propose the reparations program shall consist of, in concrete terms? I am much more interested in that than points that we have already rehashed in this thread.
You are an intelligent fellow, so I am more than sure you already have concrete solutions in mind.
Last edited by Freedom123; 04-23-2011 at 11:30 PM..
What you ignore is that it was a government OF THE WHITE PEOPLE, BY THE WHITE PEOPLE and FOR THE WHITE PEOPLE. This is a representitive REPUBLIC. Hence, when the people are racist the government is going to represent/reflect those racist interest. People SHOULD hold the government responsible because it is the entity that is still in existance and hence can be held responsible for its wrongs. The whites who owned slaves are all dead....but the government that faciliated and organized it is still around.
Good evening,
I am aware of this, but I can argue this has already been reversed, with Black poverty dropping from over 60% before 1960 down to a 25% rate of today. The absence of an officially named Black-targeted reparations plan does not mean a large form of repair was not done to Blacks as a group, and these stats display that.
If racist white government were still oppressing Blacks, the poverty rate would have remained the same or increased.
Either way, even if we accept your assumptions and reject mine, what are your concrete reparations solutions?
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