Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The main fault would lie with the Africans that went out and captured their African brethren from other tribes and chose to sell them to the European traders.... And consider that slavery is still practiced in Africa today. Also, in some Africa countries, children are forced into becoming soldiers. So there is child slavery being practiced in Africa today.
The reason that blacks were the only ones being bought as slaves and brought to Africa, is because they were being sold as slaves in Africa. Selling slaves was an active and huge business in Africa for hundreds of years. And no other country was selling slaves. Plus these Africa blacks led a much more primitive existence that the Europeans that bought them. They had no written language, their verbal language was a series of clicks and grunts. They lived in mud or straw huts and had strange body piercings, some elongated their necks with torques and some stuck discs inside their lower lips. Naturally, the Europeans saw the slave stock blacks as closer to animals than their peers. And the Europeans viewed the natives in North and South Americas, and the Eskimos the same way. But 150 years ago and longer, it was a much different time for scientific and cultural knowledge.
The large landowners tried and used other forced labor as well, but it didn't work out as well. The Old Bailey provided convicts, many with life sentnces early on. Many Irish and Scots were transported for suspected of being in favor of rebellion. There were attemps to use natives, but they didn't live long. In the end importing people who had someone else catch and "tame" them was the most workable solution.
Convict labor continued all the way up to the revolution as well. It was the American revolution which caused the colony of Australia to be founded because there was nowhere to send those removed by transportation. Thus, they founded a colony origionally mostly with forced labor.
That sort of beginning doesn't predispose one to feel as if they are "less". Aussies are rather proud of their origions. So are many *white* americans who find that if their transported relatives could get over it and go on and work for better was a good thing.
Nor is the idea sometimes stated that whites all owned slaves in the south. The majority of whites were dirt poor and maintaining a slave was a luxury item. The small sliver of society were slave owners for the south was a very heavily class segmented society. The upper class didn't see much value in poor whites either. This idea still carries over and is allowed to be used to stir up feelings against other poor people rather than being allowed to die.
I also think that any black person that willingly embraces speaking ebonics and styling themselves like a gangsta rap musician with baggy pants and other mannerism is doing a great job of keeping themselves down and without any career opportunities. Paying out reparations isn't going to fix their bad choices in dress and poor communication skills. People like that resist being encouraged to "act white".
And it's no white person's fault that black people choose to "act black".
PLEASE! This is such a tired ridiculous argument. White people fought the civil war over states rights.....not because they loved black people so much that they wanted to see them free. Slavery was the end result of the war.....not it's objective. If it had not been for lazy white Americans there would not have been any slavery in the first place. Where there is no demand there is no need for supply!
Very easy for people who are not black to make these statements when they are not the one's afflicted with the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow! Another one added to the ignore list!
And the dance continues....LMAO Whites are blamed for slavery, because they "profited" from African slavery...and yet... It was the Africans who sold/traded (hence profited) from slavery, the selling of their own people. Yet another fact that continuously gets put on the "ignore list". Another ignore list item?...that whites, in spite of the risk of prosecution, taught blacks to read and formed the underground railroads which rescued blacks from slavery.....blacks who had been sold by blacks, to white traders. Hmmm and yet SOME blacks continue to blame whites for slavery. Yes, an interesting and yet ignorant concept.
Of course, I suppose it's easier to blame someone else, than it is to look at oneself in the mirror and say, "My GOD, my own PEOPLE did this to us!"
Okay, I have a new theory as to why American blacks can't get over being brought as slaves to America, while other cultural and racial groups also came to the US destitute and downtrodden yet are able to be productive groups in the US today. Even women who only got the right to vote in America in 1913, and were late to voting rights in most part of the world, are doing better now, than American blacks, particularly the American black male. And I mention this fact because currently there are more black women in college than black males... and black males have the advantage over black women in terms of athletic scholarship opportunities.
Yes, it sucks that blacks were brought as slaves to the US, however what also bugs them subconsciously is that they lack real pride in being from Africa. The Africa of 150+ years ago during the slave trade was a very primitive land where the tribes lived in Stone Age condition and cultures. They had no written language. So American blacks don't have their national pride to fall back on, unlike those from Ireland, other parts of Europe and those from Asia. I've worked in several places where the makeup of the employees was very international. And while I saw a lot of pride in ones nationality with people from all countries, the exception was anyone from the African continent whether from American slave stock or a recent immigration was markedly silent about their background. Old Africa was primitive and lacking marks of intelligence and achievements, and modern Africa is a mess and full of brutality, genocide and still primitive mud hut living conditions. Africa is just not a place that anyone would be proud to have recent roots in. Sure, mankind may have originated in Africa millions of years ago, but while those that left the African continent evolved to higher levels, those people who stayed in Africa haven't progressed much. And what modern knowledge they have, came from the Europeans and being colonized by them. And yes, there has been black achievement in America, but it came from and could only come from the fact that they lived a white or European lifestyle, and not because they used their African cultural roots or background.
And that is also why the Africa continent will stay a mess until all the people are embracing the mindset of and living a more modern and European/American lifestyle. Tribalism just doesn't work in modern times.
In a nutshell, not only are American blacks consciously bothered by having been brought over as slaves, they also have subconscious issues with not being truly being proud to be from Africa. Out of all the countries in the world, the African continent has some of the worst living conditions and countries that are the least desirable to live in. And claiming the Ancient Egyptians as examples of their wonderful heritage is really stretching it (because they lived so long ago) and it's not enough to boost their collective self esteem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn
I love the way people try to use the fact that Obama was elected to prove some kind of point. Are you aware that the leader of the free world has a white mother and an African (black) father?
Therefore making the statement that he is African American is not completely accurate. Seems to me that each time these debates come up Obama is mentioned as being African American and his white mother is conveniently left out!
Wow im overwhelmed by ignorance. Where do i even start
I'll say this though Barack obama is black. Saying anything else is delusional
Actually I have long advocated that "Race" not be used as a criteria for programs such as Affirmative Action or other targeted efforts. The reason being is that in the language of the laws created to outlaw racial targeting, because it was used to oppress black people, the language can also be used to prevent racial targeting that can and should be used to repair the damage done to black people.
In light of that, blacks really cannot be targeted for repair because it violates laws against racial discrimination, which helps preserve the impact of past racial discrimination. Hence, I propose that the targeting be done on the basis of descent from American slavery. In other words, descendants of slaves (DOS). People who are DOS can then be targeted on that basis, thus not violating laws against racial discrimination.
At the University of Michigan people from obscure counties in the state are given admission preferences, the same way that people from minority groups were. Howeve, laws against racial discrimination was used to do away with a racial preference. Yet, people from obscure counties in Michigan still get preference.....and those people are nearly all white. So because whites live in an obscure counties......and blacks don't (in any significance)....whites get a preference that black don't, that is not related to race. DOS would work the same way. Its something that would map primarilty to blacks, but not be based upon race. I mean....whose fault is it that America only chose to enslave blacks?
Good evening,
I understand exactly what you're saying and appreciate you clarifying your position on race-based targeting. I did quick research on the rural counties points given in University of Michigan admissions. I am adamantly against this. If I were in charge, I'd give disadvantaged-based preferences based on poverty, nothing more. The scale would slide from most poor to least poor. All the other preferences would be based on typical academic qualifications. I don't want children of successful Blacks like you and I benefiting and pushing out other students who really need the assistance.
Either way, I don't think the correct reaction to resolving a system (like U of Michigan) that prefers whites directly or indirectly is to create one that prefers Blacks to make up for the error. The correct reaction is to eliminate any white preferences, directly or indirectly and make it purely based on poverty and merit.
Once again, I'm more interested in your concrete, detailed solutions for reparations. You say you're not interested in race-based solutions (even though your "descendants of slaves" proposal is still in theory race based). This is still not politically feasible, per racism according to your opinion and according to various factors according to my opinion.
That being said, it brings me to two questions:
Using your descendants of slaves system, how do we account for Blacks with both slave and slave-owner blood? Is there a sliding scale, or is it 50% or more slave blood? How is it implemented to ensure only descendants of slaves are targeted and non-slave descendant Blacks don't take advantage? What does the program consist of?
My most important question: What do you propose that is detailed, concrete and actually has a prayer of becoming law? I'm more interested in solutions than theory at this point.
I'm really curious to see what you are specifically offering since you've built up much anticipation over this entire thread.
Okay, I have a new theory as to why American blacks can't get over being brought as slaves to America, while other cultural and racial groups also came to the US destitute and downtrodden yet are able to be productive groups in the US today. Even women who only got the right to vote in America in 1913, and were late to voting rights in most part of the world, are doing better now, than American blacks, particularly the American black male. And I mention this fact because currently there are more black women in college than black males... and black males have the advantage over black women in terms of athletic scholarship opportunities.
Yes, it sucks that blacks were brought as slaves to the US, however what also bugs them subconsciously is that they lack real pride in being from Africa. The Africa of 150+ years ago during the slave trade was a very primitive land where the tribes lived in Stone Age condition and cultures. They had no written language. So American blacks don't have their national pride to fall back on, unlike those from Ireland, other parts of Europe and those from Asia. I've worked in several places where the makeup of the employees was very international. And while I saw a lot of pride in ones nationality with people from all countries, the exception was anyone from the African continent whether from American slave stock or a recent immigration was markedly silent about their background. Old Africa was primitive and lacking marks of intelligence and achievements, and modern Africa is a mess and full of brutality, genocide and still primitive mud hut living conditions. Africa is just not a place that anyone would be proud to have recent roots in. Sure, mankind may have originated in Africa millions of years ago, but while those that left the African continent evolved to higher levels, those people who stayed in Africa haven't progressed much. And what modern knowledge they have, came from the Europeans and being colonized by them. And yes, there has been black achievement in America, but it came from and could only come from the fact that they lived a white or European lifestyle, and not because they used their African cultural roots or background.
And that is also why the Africa continent will stay a mess until all the people are embracing the mindset of and living a more modern and European/American lifestyle. Tribalism just doesn't work in modern times.
In a nutshell, not only are American blacks consciously bothered by having been brought over as slaves, they also have subconscious issues with not being truly being proud to be from Africa. Out of all the countries in the world, the African continent has some of the worst living conditions and countries that are the least desirable to live in. And claiming the Ancient Egyptians as examples of their wonderful heritage is really stretching it (because they lived so long ago) and it's not enough to boost their collective self esteem.
I disagree with your theory. I am a non American black. I live in the Caribbean. Caribbean blacks tend to not be hung up on slavery at all, though we have a similar history of forced equally brutal enslavement to the African American. Slavery is recognized as being the reason we live where we live, we learn lots about our West African ancestors in school and their journey to the Western hemisphere and their subsequent life in the Caribbean. We celebrate the Emancipation of the slaves (it is a public holiday here) but at the end of the day being descended of slaves does not define us and is no excuse for failing at life.
This begs the question, why are blacks of the "third world" not hung up on slavery or do not see themselves as victims or look for someone to blame for their failures. After all the Caribbean is considered a collection of banana republics not so(at least in the eyes of the world)? We should be blaming "the man" all the time for our 3rd world "plight" Notice I am not comparing Caribbean blacks to African Americans as I have never met an African American before. Just going on what you have said about them being hung up on slavery.
Herein lies the fundamental difference.I have grown up always seeing people in positions of power who look like me. I have lived in a society where my African ancestor's culture is not derided....it is mainstream and normal...not even given the exotic label . It is taught extensively in schools. African Americans have no such luxury. They were brought to a country where apart from being put to work like animals (not unique to African Americans as slavery in the Caribbean was just as brutal) but they were also seen as worthless, unintelligent and their cultural contributions derided in a society where whiteness only was seen as the norm or default. That part is unique to African Americans. When you combine this with them being cut off from their original culture then you have a people who can be embittered. That's my theory. And it is supported by the fact that Caribbean born and African blacks achieve more in America than African Americans who have been there for eons.
Furthermore miu...where do you get off thinking people should get over a particular event that occurred to their ancestors. As neither you nor I is African American it is outright bold of either of us to say that they should get over slavery. We don't know how/if it has affected them. We are purely on the outside looking in and just forming theories based on our observations.
I can also say the Jews should "get over" the Holocaust as they are rich and sucessfull and actually got and still get reparations from Germany. See how bold and out of place that sounds for me, an outsider who has never had an ancestor affected by the Holocaust.
And it is supported by the fact that Caribbean born and African blacks achieve more in America than African Americans who have been there for eons.
Africans and caribbeans are delusional when it comes to black americans. Black americans are by far more successful than any other blacks in the united states or anywhere else. The biggest political,scientific,influential black figures are black americans
Africans and caribbeans are delusional when it comes to black americans. Black americans are by far more successful than any other blacks in the united states or anywhere else. The biggest political,scientific,influential black figures are black americans
Don't want to derail the thread too much but haven't numerous studies shown that black immigrants who form only a small part of the American black population(I believe under 10%) make up as much as half of all black students in American universities. I believe their salaries are also higher than African Americans's own.
At the end of the day I am not proud of these statistics. It is all just contributing to the brain drain as these immigrants are enriching another man's land. I don't live in the US and have no desire to, therefore the achievements of Caribbean immigrants in the US is irrelevant to me. I just stated it in my original post to make a point.
Don't want to derail the thread too much but haven't numerous studies shown that black immigrants who form only a small part of the American black population(I believe under 10%) make up as much as half of all black students in American universities. I believe their salaries are also higher than African Americans's own.
At the end of the day I am not proud of these statistics. It is all just contributing to the brain drain as these immigrants are enriching another man's land. I don't live in the US and have no desire to, therefore the achievements of Caribbean immigrants in the US is irrelevant to me. I just stated it in my original post to make a point.
If this stat is true, my guess is that it is because blacks from other countries might move to the US for the purpose of education, whereas not every black American (or white American) goes to college. I haver known many people from Kenya, Ghana, etc., who have moved here for this purpose. Some stay, and some go home. I have graduated from both UAB in Birmingham, AL, as well as University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, and have met many Africans, Asians, Middle Eastern people, etc. who have come on scholarship and temporary visas' to learn.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And consider that slavery is still practiced in Africa today. Also, in some Africa countries, children are forced into becoming soldiers. So there is child slavery being practiced in Africa today. 
Whites are blamed for slavery, because they "profited" from African slavery...and yet... It was the Africans who sold/traded (hence profited) from slavery, the selling of their own people. Yet another fact that continuously gets put on the "ignore list". Another ignore list item?...that whites, in spite of the risk of prosecution, taught blacks to read and formed the underground railroads which rescued blacks from slavery.....blacks who had been sold by blacks, to white traders. Hmmm and yet SOME blacks continue to blame whites for slavery. Yes, an interesting and yet ignorant concept. 
