Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-15-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: In the north country fair
5,012 posts, read 10,692,515 times
Reputation: 7871

Advertisements

Gender is a social construction. Definitions of "masculine" and "feminine" change according to time and geographic location. Their instability belies their arbitrary construction.

The idea that women are naturally one way and that men are naturally another is simply how societies want men and women to think b/c it establishes and maintains a certain order, which is why people who do not follow the norms are usually attacked in an attempt to force them to conform b/c they are seen as a threat to said order.

But there is nothing natural about a woman wearing pink or a man wearing blue, or a woman repressing her sexuality while a man asserts his. It is simply the way that the world has been organized, usually by men and usually with the help of religion.

In fact, before the development of patrilineal, Christian et al. societies, matrilineal, pagan societies were the norm. With the advent of patrilineal societies came many myths--some Christian, some even pagan (i.e. neo-pagan)--but all reinforcing men as dominant in a culture, which portrayed women as dangerous and irresponsible, thereby rationalizing their domination by men (think Pandora and Eve).

However, there is absolutely no "natural" reason why men should be dominant and/or more aggressive than women. On the contrary, women are usually just as aggressive and violent; their aggression, violence and dominance simply isn't as condoned as that of men (sometimes, it isn't condoned at all) by their respective societies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-15-2011, 10:26 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,742,791 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by lentzr View Post
I understand that men are by nature more aggressive, assertive and dominant than women. OK. There will perhaps always be some of that in our society. However, how much of it is due to ingrain differences between the genders and societal imposition of such norms? What I am trying to figure out is exactly how much more aggressive and dominant men would be there were no pressures to be "real men."

I do believe that at least some of it is cultural. Men are more "real men" in societies that are more violent and "tougher." I noticed this during my time spent in Central America where the men were even more macho than American men. It appears to be partially a cultural aspect. Down there they are expected to be real men, macho men and exert their dominance. However, in more gentler parts of Europe, especially northern Europe, people have told me that the men are certainly even less macho than the Americans. I believe this to be true especially since, for example, Swedish men are world famous for devoting more time to paternal responsibilities. This is partially cultural and partially due to I believe the strength of the women's movement. I also believe that what women are attracted to also plays a part. I heard of a recent study that American women are more attracted to men that are heavy on the testasterone than many European women. So I will even suggest that women are actually part of the reasons for men's behavior.

But exactly how much less macho and dominant could men be if cultural norms were different? Could all societies have less macho like many Swedish men? Or is that a cultural characteristics that is only possible in Scandavanian societies? or is it a lot more natural for men to be men?
I have noticed such differences from country to country as well and I too think it has a lot to do with culture.
I myself am a very peaceful, non-aggressive man, vegetarian even (maybe meat consumption has to do with hormones), more of a mind person than a physical one. Violence and macho behavior is embarrassing in my view, it may be ok for little boys of a certain age, but not for adults. Action movies only make me laugh, those heroes seem like apes to me Gee, I am a human with an IQ of 140+, not a stupid silverback alpha male gorilla fighting with other gorillas over who gets to mate with female gorillas
Some men try to correspond to the image the media is trying to sell us, others couldn't care less. Same with women, some try to be like women in magazines, others couldn't care less.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,120,188 times
Reputation: 865
Is there any natural masculinity apart from culture? Demonstrations of masculinity are always rooted in culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 08:59 AM
 
26,786 posts, read 22,545,020 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Is there any natural masculinity apart from culture? Demonstrations of masculinity are always rooted in culture.
Or most likely it's vice versa. The "natural masculinity" defines the culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 11:35 AM
 
874 posts, read 1,648,461 times
Reputation: 790
I believe it's based on genes inheritance and a little bit of culture and personality; which personality pretty much ties into genes inheritance though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: USA
869 posts, read 972,104 times
Reputation: 294
When males are exposed to violent heroes like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Doc Holiday in popular films-of course they will get the message that a violent predisposition is a masculine trait and lack of it is feminine. Kids are new on this planet and depend on adults for guidence. Common sense 101.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,353,110 times
Reputation: 39038
One thing I have noticed about Scandinavian men is that while they may not be macho, they are not effeminate. Many if not most Scandinavia men are physically tough and hardy, and much handier than Americans in terms of ability to build and repair everything from log cabins to dishwashers. It is a DIY culture.

Of course there are some fops in the cities, but on the whole, they come off as capable and not afraid to get their hands dirty. When it comes to macho posturing and dominating women, they are definitely falling behind other places like Latin America and the Mediterranean countries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,938,758 times
Reputation: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
The idea that women are naturally one way and that men are naturally another is simply how societies want men and women to think b/c it establishes and maintains a certain order, which is why people who do not follow the norms are usually attacked in an attempt to force them to conform b/c they are seen as a threat to said order.

But there is nothing natural about a woman wearing pink or a man wearing blue, or a woman repressing her sexuality while a man asserts his. It is simply the way that the world has been organized, usually by men and usually with the help of religion.

However, there is absolutely no "natural" reason why men should be dominant and/or more aggressive than women. On the contrary, women are usually just as aggressive and violent; their aggression, violence and dominance simply isn't as condoned as that of men (sometimes, it isn't condoned at all) by their respective societies.
There is absolutely a "natural" reason why men are, in general, more aggressive than women. It's fairly common among most mammals, and it boils down to sex.

There's generally a lot of competition for mates (and other resources) among males of a species. This is generally not the case for females. So, we've adapted to intimidate and fight with each other in order to better compete.

There's enough hormonal and genetic differences between the sexes that it's a fairly open and shut case.
--------------------------

Of course there are a wide range of ways that these differences are displayed.

I suppose you could say it depends on how traits are emphasized. You could take a handful of masculine traits, and express them a thousand different ways.

It's easy to say men are aggressive, protective, dominant and providers, but what does that actually mean?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2011, 06:50 PM
 
26,786 posts, read 22,545,020 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post

It's easy to say men are aggressive, protective, dominant and providers, but what does that actually mean?
Nothing much; just another generalization and stereotyping, apparently...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2011, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,176 posts, read 10,687,536 times
Reputation: 9646
People DO like to stereotype, because it makes them more comfortable to pigeonhole people.

I have been known as a very aggressive woman, powerful in politics and able to get things done by being up front and forceful, even to some intimidating. One fella even said (a lot) "I feel sorry for your husband!" - assuming he was a Caspar Milquetoast. Except - he wasn't - he was a very strong man, who opened doors for women, who was a mechanic, firefighter, and paramedic, who was also a gentle and loving father to his children. Women alternately fawned over him or were terrified of him during his dating years. He simply didn't want a clingy dependent woman, or one who thought she could manipulate him with her "wiles" - he wanted a partner, someone who was as tough and self-confident, who wasn't afraid to say what she thought or do what she meant to do - because that was how HE was. Together we had an intense relationship and partnership - but folks liked to insist that it was a case of dominant female/submissive male. What you see and what you interpret is not always the reality - and in our case, nothing could have been further from the truth!

Many people fall into the stereotypes because they are afraid - afraid of censure, afraid of their mom or dad, sister or brother, neighbor or friend, afraid for their jobs, afraid of public censure in the media - whatever. Others are who they are and just don't give a d___ what other people think, say or do about it.

The whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" stuff just cracks me up... I picture a tall, thin, grey-haired, Van-Dyke-bearded type sitting in judgement over people from behind a desk, stuffing their paper-cut-out bodies into pigeonholes on his writing-desk, never having gotten out into the world and realized the vast diversities of individuals and groups.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top