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The poster I was replying to stated something like "rapists have it in them to rape". It sounds like she is saying its something some men/people are born with. I'm saying that's not exactly true. Culture and environmental influences play a huge role in rape and its occurrence.
The poster I was replying to stated something like "rapists have it in them to rape". It sounds like she is saying its something some men/people are born with. I'm saying that's not exactly true. Culture and environmental influences play a huge role in rape and its occurrence.
I can see that. Whether it's rape, slavery, torturing animals, whatever many humans are quite capable of all kind of things given the right circumstances.
The poster I was replying to stated something like "rapists have it in them to rape". It sounds like she is saying its something some men/people are born with. I'm saying that's not exactly true. Culture and environmental influences play a huge role in rape and its occurrence.
You misunderstood if you thought I was saying that. I was actually responding to a poster who I thought held that belief, because he stated that all people are potential rapists. I took that to mean that we must be born that way (otherwise how would everyone, regardless of culture have that same trait?) I personally know that rape is cultural. This and other threads about the topic prove it is very much a part of modern American culture. The fact that there are people saying anything other than "death to all rapists" makes for an environment conducive to rape.
We had the death penalty for rape for long stretches of time in the US. But it didn't solve the question of how to decide exactly which acts or which events qualified as "rape." The penalty was severe, so there was actually quite a bit of latitude afforded by judges and juries in a lot of cases regarding what to punish and what to politely ignore. For instance, if it happened inside of a house, and the people knew each other - almost never rape. If it happened in a brothel - not rape. If the woman was drunk - not usually rape. And so on. Because you don't want to end up sending a "nice young man" to the gallows for something questionable, but not necessarily beyond the boundaries of the "civilized imagination" of the time.
Look at the history of warfare. We've seen mass-rapes throughout history, often carried out by soldiers who get "caught up in the moment," but never repeat that sort of behavior after the war, or sometimes even after a single incident. They are rapists, but they make up such a broad cross-section of society that jailing everyone like them would put the great majority of the male population in prison.
In extreme circumstances (or merely just "the right" circumstances) most men and women can be induced to help commit genocide. Let alone rape. That's just human nature, though.
It's kind of ludicrous that you think you know whether those rapists ever raped before or after the war. How can you know that? Even if every soldier rapist throughout history personally told you that was his one and only rape, you'd still just be taking the word of a rapist. Additionally, even if a dude did just get "oops caught up in the moment" I still say get rid of him. I don't care "why" you did it, and I don't care how many did it. Once you rape someone you have no business mingling with society. I personally feel you've lost your right to live, and I will fight til my last breath to have the death penalty for rapists and child molesters.
You seem to have more of a problem with a "great majority" of the male population in jail than you do with a great majority of the female population being raped. I'm solidly opposite you there.
I can totally understand murder and genocide. I can accept that those tendencies are within general human nature, particularly when perceived self defense is involved. I will never understand how someone can rape, and I do not believe rape is part of human nature. I could be convinced that it is part of male nature. I don't think that's the case, and it would be a pretty life altering realization that I hope I never come to, but I'm open to the idea.
Throughout the thread, I've called for death to rapists. I want to be clear though - the death of rapists is not the solution! The solution is a society that unites and collectively proclaims zero tolerance for rape. And that's what I mean when I say all rapists should die for their crime. I mean that I am 100% anti rape. Anyone who makes cute little excuses for rapists or presents elaborate scholarly defenses for them is at least a little pro rape. And as long as plenty of people are a little bit pro rape, we'll continue to have lots of rape going on. You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem here.
I personally feel you've lost your right to live, and I will fight til my last breath to have the death penalty for rapists and child molesters.
You lost that fight years ago. In Coker v. Georgia, 433 U.S. 584 (1977) the United States Supreme Court held that the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment for someone raping an adult. Possibly, molestation of a child could still be a constitutional basis for imposing the death penalty. Although, I am unaware of any states that have tried to do so. Having the death penalty for rape is really a pretty bad idea if you think about it. If a perpetrator knew rape would result in the death penalty more victims would end up being murdered, so that there would be no witness to the crime. That's a result that no one wants.
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You seem to have more of a problem with a "great majority" of the male population in jail than you do with a great majority of the female population being raped. I'm solidly opposite you there.
I interpreted the post differently than you. I think the poster, like me, just realizes these problems have been with us since the beginning of humankind. Ideally, we could eliminate rape, but its unlikely. The best bet is to reduce the numbers. The best strategy for doing so is open and frank discussion of the problem. Penalties for rape--should like any other crime--reflect the seriousness of the offense. Breaking into a woman's apartment and forcing her to have sex at knife point is horrendously serious and calls for a very long prison sentence. Rape in the circumstance which occurred in this case is not as serious as that and should be punished with a lesser penalty. I'm not against what the judge did in that case. The most important thing is that punishment should be swift and sure and that being a rapist should be highly stigmatic.
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I can totally understand murder and genocide. I can accept that those tendencies are within general human nature, particularly when perceived self defense is involved. I will never understand how someone can rape, and I do not believe rape is part of human nature. I could be convinced that it is part of male nature. I don't think that's the case, and it would be a pretty life altering realization that I hope I never come to, but I'm open to the idea.
I feel exactly the opposite. Murder is the ultimate crime, not rape. Death is final and nothing in the world can fix or heal it. In short, when there is life there is hope. Psychological trauma from rape and other catastrophes can be healed or ameliorated with therapy, with medications, and support from society. Much of it depends on the willingness of the victim to want to move on with their life. America is a society where many people have had to rebuild their lives from financial ruin and natural disaster. My mother rebuilt her life after having been run over by a car and suffering crippling injuries that almost killed her. I wouldn't try to tell her that rape is the worst thing that could happen to a person. I suspect, she'd laugh in your face.
Last edited by markg91359; 03-20-2013 at 11:17 PM..
Anyone who makes cute little excuses for rapists or presents elaborate scholarly defenses for them is at least a little pro rape.
I think people are calling for caution when crimes or alleged crimes involve ambiguous evidence. Look at the number of supposed rapists or molesters who have been freed from prison over the years - not because DNA evidence showed that someone else carried out the crime, but because no crime occurred.
Would you have sent Jon Montgomery - the young guy in the story I linked above - to the death chamber for a crime it turns out was never even committed? If not, how exactly would you have prevented that outcome? He was convicted of molestation and rape, after all.
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It's kind of ludicrous that you think you know whether those rapists ever raped before or after the war. How can you know that?
Because rape rates go off-the-charts after certain events, like when an enemy army sacks a rival city. If those guys were all just rapists anyway, their home countries would be riddled by rape to the point of paralysis before and after the war. But that's not what seems to happen. Under extreme circumstances, people do extreme things. They do things they regret later on, and things they'll never do again. That's just how the world works.
You obviously don't feel very comfortable with those facts, but then again, facts have no obligation to provide for your comfort.
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I do not believe rape is part of human nature. I could be convinced that it is part of male nature. I don't think that's the case
If rape wasn't part of people's nature, we'd be able to find societies where rape was or is unknown, but, we really can't. The rate of rape can clearly be reduced by some combination of law enforcement and cultural norms against rape, but there's pretty much no society where the rape rate is lower than the murder rate, and there are already very powerful cultural norms against murder.
You could probably use the murder rate as a realistic yardstick for how low the rape rate could be reduced. Maybe something like the murder rate times 1.5 or 2. But you will absolutely never be able to apply the death penalty against all alleged rapists, simply because evidence is always going to be ambiguous or inconclusive in a lot of these cases. How could you sentence someone to death if there is an active debate over whether or not his (or her, in some cases) conduct constitutes a crime at all?
Anyway, there is certainly "rapelike" or forced-mating behavior in other species as well, so, it seems to be part of the evolution of humanity.
. . . there's pretty much no society where the rape rate is lower than the murder rate, and there are already very powerful cultural norms against murder.
. . . But you will absolutely never be able to apply the death penalty against all alleged rapists, simply because evidence is always going to be ambiguous or inconclusive in a lot of these cases. How could you sentence someone to death if there is an active debate over whether or not his (or her, in some cases) conduct constitutes a crime at all?
I agree that rapes could be decreased if we collectively viewed rape as equal to murder. You're saying that there are very powerful cultural norms against murder and indeed it does keep murder numbers down lower than rape numbers. Rape is more accepted than murder, therefor we have more rapes than murders.
Again, I'm not even saying the actual carrying out of the death penalty is the solution. It is the sincere collective cry for the death penalty that is the solution because a society that does not tolerate rape is a society with less rape. What decreases rape is an overwhelming cultural outrage and intolerance instead of this wink nudge ho hum shoulder shrugging reaction I'm seeing all over the place. When we hear about a rape we should "see red" instead of fumbling for excuses and explanations. The latter is a culture of rape, the former is not.
I feel exactly the opposite. Murder is the ultimate crime, not rape. Death is final and nothing in the world can fix or heal it. In short, when there is life there is hope. Psychological trauma from rape and other catastrophes can be healed or ameliorated with therapy, with medications, and support from society. Much of it depends on the willingness of the victim to want to move on with their life. America is a society where many people have had to rebuild their lives from financial ruin and natural disaster. My mother rebuilt her life after having been run over by a car and suffering crippling injuries that almost killed her. I wouldn't try to tell her that rape is the worst thing that could happen to a person. I suspect, she'd laugh in your face.
I totally respect your opinion that murder is worse than rape. Many people agree with you but I personally do not feel that way. Probably because I believe we live on after "death". I am not afraid to die, but I am terrified of being raped.
So am I the only one that thinks raping an unconscious girl is just as bad as choosing a victim that can fight back? I think it is just a matter of the rapist's preference. Some rapists get a thrill out of the fight, while others have more of a child molester mindset - they like their victims defenseless.
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