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Again it is possible for a rape victim to get over the crime, and live a long an happy life. Many do it. That is unless the victim gets her skull caved in, and ends up in a laying is a hospital bed in a vegetated state.
There are different levels of the same crime. One punishment doesn't fit all. If the punishment is the same for all, then you are encouraging the perpetrator to escalate the violence. Since there would be no additional penalty anyway.
You bring up additional crimes committed in conjunction with rape. Then you weight the other factors heavier than the act of rape? Wow, that is a new one.
So in KaaBoom's court of law, which person gets the heavier sentence.
John Doe 1 gets loaded with a girl, she passes out they have their way with her unconscious body. She files for rape upon waking/next day. (Liken to Steubenville)
John Doe 2 gets loaded at the bar, gets into a fist fight with someone and puts the guy in the hospital for 2 months with brutal injuries.
Drop the ancillary technicalities and give me the your sentences.
Wow, and my baffling is becoming more clear. So there are levels of rape? She was asking for it by her clothing-type-of-guy you are? So drinking/being drunk means you are free-for-all piece of meat to the surrounding men?
You sound like an caveman, and an utter moron to spew that kind of nonsense.
This is the legal definition of rape, which the judge and jury felt was met by the criminals in this situation.
"Rape is the commission of unlawful sexual intercourse or unlawful sexual intrusion"
So regardless of the details that literally don't matter, the jury felt this was met you are ok under any circumstance with someone getting 1-4 years for that crime?
Then you don't even bat an eye at TJ Lane? What if he was abused or drunk or something? You can't find it in your heart to give him 1-4 years because you don't know the factors?
Disgusting...
When I get heavily intoxicated, I know that I am much more likely to be raped, robbed, or murdered. Hence, if I get plastered, walk into a gay bar, and somebody takes advantage of me, wasn't I largely responsible for it? If I'm in the middle of a black ghetto, and I appear as a heavily intoxicated white suburban male with money in my pockets, and I stumble out of a bar, and pass out in some trash, would it be surprising to find out somebody picked my pocket? If I get drunk and go to parts where I don't belong, isn't it more likely that I'll be killed during a robbery because I look like an easy mark? I'm not sticking up for the boys who committed the rape, but it's a huge gray area, and it's not as black and white as many are painting it.
Since the defendants and plaintiffs usually have some sort of relationship prior to the crime, it's always a huge quagmire to sift through. Sadly, it almost always boils down to what agenda the district attorney has, what's in favor with the yellow journalism of today, and who appears more believable. It doesn't matter who's telling the truth, it only matters who appears more believable. Furthermore, most court cases today make it there solely based on rather weak circumstantial evidence. I personally wouldn't want to be sitting on any jury simply due to the fact that I have to discern who's telling the best story and or appears truthful due to the state's lack of concrete evidence. Additionally, did you sit on both juries of the trials you're so adamant about? Are you privy to all the facts of the case? Were you at the scene of both crimes and saw things that didn't come out in the trial, or are your suppositions based solely on what was written in a paper or online, your personal feelings due to real or imagined events in your own life, and who knows what? How are you so sure you know what happened and that you know what's best?
There's a huge difference between taking sexual advantage of an intoxicated person you know and overtly raping a stranger, and that's why there are different levels of punishment. Whether or not the boys got just punishment I have no clue because I didn't hear all the evidence relating to the crime and I didn't get to hear about the character of all parties involved.
Last edited by bolillo_loco; 03-25-2013 at 05:27 PM..
Reason: No Rhodes scholar here
You bring up additional crimes committed in conjunction with rape. Then you weight the other factors heavier than the act of rape? Wow, that is a new one.
So in KaaBoom's court of law, which person gets the heavier sentence.
John Doe 1 gets loaded with a girl, she passes out they have their way with her unconscious body. She files for rape upon waking/next day. (Liken to Steubenville)
John Doe 2 gets loaded at the bar, gets into a fist fight with someone and puts the guy in the hospital for 2 months with brutal injuries.
Drop the ancillary technicalities and give me the your sentences.
I'd say they are both on about the same level. They are both victims, and they probably both put themselves in that situation. Of course it would depend on the specifics of the cases.
When I get heavily intoxicated, I know that I am much more likely to be raped, robbed, or murdered. Hence, if I get plastered, walk into a gay bar, and somebody takes advantage of me, wasn't I largely responsible for it? If I'm in the middle of a black ghetto, and I appear as a heavily intoxicated white suburban male with money in my pockets, and I stumble out of a bar, and pass out in some trash, would it be surprising to find out somebody picked my pocket? If I get drunk and go to parts where I don't belong, isn't it more likely that I'll be killed during a robbery because I look like an easy mark? I'm not sticking up for the boys who committed the rape, but it's a huge gray area, and it's not as black and white as many are painting it.
Since the defendants and plaintiffs usually have some sort of relationship prior to the crime, it's always a huge quagmire to sift through. Sadly, it almost always boils down to what agenda the district attorney has, what's in favor with the yellow journalism of today, and who appears more believable. It doesn't matter who's telling the truth, it only matters who appears more believable. Furthermore, most court cases today make it there solely based on rather weak circumstantial evidence. I personally wouldn't want to be sitting on any jury simply due to the fact that I have to discern who's telling the best story and or appears truthful due to the state's lack of concrete evidence. Additionally, did you sit on both juries of the trials you're so adamant about? Are you privy to all the facts of the case? Were you at the scene of both crimes and saw things that didn't come out in the trial, or are your suppositions based solely on what was written in a paper or online, your personal feelings due to real or imagined events in your own life, and who knows what? How are you so sure you know what happened and that you know what's best?
There's a huge difference between taking sexual advantage of an intoxicated person you know and overtly raping a stranger, and that's why there are different levels of punishment. Whether or not the boys got just punishment I have no clue because I didn't hear all the evidence relating to the crime and I didn't get to hear about the character of all parties involved.
Where do you don't belong? So by drinking, being at legal establishment and enjoying the evening (I presume in scantily clad clothing to boot.) you must weigh each drink you take against the increasing expectation to be raped?
Wow, that is probably partly why rape is so socially acceptable. Doing actions which are all completely legal actions is never a justification to be a victim of a crime, including rape.
Where do you don't belong? So by drinking, being at legal establishment and enjoying the evening (I presume in scantily clad clothing to boot.) you must weigh each drink you take against the increasing expectation to be raped?
Wow, that is probably partly why rape is so socially acceptable. Doing actions which are all completely legal actions is never a justification to be a victim of a crime, including rape.
I am only left shaking my head. Is this reality?
Neither that poster, nor I find rape to be "socially acceptable" or acceptable in any manner. Stop twisting our words around and try reading what we are saying for a change.
I think the real problem here is that your mind does not allow you to grasp any subtleties. You think in a black/white way. Of course, the world really isn't like that. Its more commonly made up of different shades of gray. Your inability to see any daylight between my two examples of rape where the perpetrator breaks into a woman's home and night and rapes her while holding a weapon and a rape that occurred without a weapon under the influence of alcohol is indicative of black/white mentality.
The reason we have a legal system and judges instead of just roving groups of vigilantes to administer the law is because it is very subtle. You don't even seem to grasp that there is a difference between being 16 and being 18, when criminal statutes make that the demarcation line between adult vs. juvenile treatment. Perhaps, for starters you could remind yourself that sixteen year olds don't vote, can't smoke, or buy alcohol under our laws.
Perhaps, that's why most people here are disagreeing with you.
Neither that poster, nor I find rape to be "socially acceptable" or acceptable in any manner. Stop twisting our words around and try reading what we are saying for a change.
I think the real problem here is that your mind does not allow you to grasp any subtleties. You think in a black/white way. Of course, the world really isn't like that. Its more commonly made up of different shades of gray. Your inability to see any daylight between my two examples of rape where the perpetrator breaks into a woman's home and night and rapes her while holding a weapon and a rape that occurred without a weapon under the influence of alcohol is indicative of black/white mentality.
The reason we have a legal system and judges instead of just roving groups of vigilantes to administer the law is because it is very subtle. You don't even seem to grasp that there is a difference between being 16 and being 18, when criminal statutes make that the demarcation line between adult vs. juvenile treatment. Perhaps, for starters you could remind yourself that sixteen year olds don't vote, can't smoke, or buy alcohol under our laws.
Perhaps, that's why most people here are disagreeing with you.
You are the one that adds qualifiers to rape. I'm pretty sure they don't have differentiating laws when you are raped with a gun or not. You downplay rape, and put more emphasis on the gun than the actual rape which is utterly disgusting.
The law states that when you penetrate someone without consent you have met the criteria for rape. Since you think you are so versed on the legal system, you would know that using a gun aggravates the sentence (increase the baseline) and that alcohol (especially voluntary intoxication) isn't a mitigating factor.
If you are OK with essentially adults (17) passing around your daughters, friend's daughters or just a complete stranger because *gasp* she had some alcohol and giving them the brutal sentence of being in for a minimum of 1 year for a heinous crime then you are just out of touch with the severity of the crime and are nothing more than a rape-sympathizer.
I can only tell everyone how I feel, if I had a daughter and they passed her around drunk and had their way with her against her will then I can assure you those two boys parents in Steubenville would have been making arrangements for a closed casket ceremony.
When I get heavily intoxicated, I know that I am much more likely to be raped, robbed, or murdered. Hence, if I get plastered, walk into a gay bar, and somebody takes advantage of me, wasn't I largely responsible for it?
Absolutely not. The only person who is ever responsible for rape is the rapist.
Believing anything other than that is victim blaming. If you passed out drunk, naked on the floor of a frat party that in NO way grants consent for anyone to have sex with you. Engaging in risky behavior does not grant consent. Having a previous sexual relationship with someone does not grant automatic consent. The only thing that grants consent is consent.
Quote:
How are you so sure you know what happened and that you know what's best?
There's a huge difference between taking sexual advantage of an intoxicated person you know and overtly raping a stranger, and that's why there are different levels of punishment. Whether or not the boys got just punishment I have no clue because I didn't hear all the evidence relating to the crime and I didn't get to hear about the character of all parties involved.
There is a huge difference. When you are raped by someone you know it can be even more traumatizing than being raped by a stranger. How can you be so sure what happened? There are videos & photographs. She clearly was incapable of giving consent & there is proof they had sex with her anyways. That is rape.
Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-26-2013 at 07:12 AM..
Absolutely not. The only person who is responsible for rape is the rapist.
Believing anything other than that is victim blaming. If you passed out drunk, naked on the floor of a frat party that in NO way grants consent for anyone to have sex with you. Engaging in risky behavior does not grant consent. Having a previous sexual relationship with someone does not grant consent. The only thing that grants consent is actual consent to sex.
There is a huge difference. When you are raped by someone you know it can be even more traumatizing than being raped by a stranger. How can you be so sure what happened? There are videos & photographs. She clearly was incapable of giving consent & there is proof they had sex with her anyways. That is rape.
This thread is full of victim blaming and rape sympathizers. That was even allegedly a 'woman' that gave you that sage wisdom.
It quite disgusting to be honest. The moral of the story is rape like wildfire before you hit 18, don't take pictures so you don't get caught and then if you do you'll be out in time to take a limo to your 21st birthday party!
Yes, derosterreich. That is the unfortunate part about rape culture... it permeates so much & most people are not even aware of rape apologetics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom
It's possible for a rape victim to get over the crime, and go on to live a long and happy life. A murder victim doesn't have that luxury. Its not even close the the same crime.
It is also possible for a rape victim to be so traumatized that they take their own life, or never fully recover psychologically. Many survivors struggle with PTSD the rest of their lives.
So although it certainly has been possible for survivors to go on to live long & happy lives, it is important we do not use that fact to minimize the life-long impact rape can & often does have.
You are the one that adds qualifiers to rape. I'm pretty sure they don't have differentiating laws when you are raped with a gun or not. You downplay rape, and put more emphasis on the gun than the actual rape which is utterly disgusting.
The law states that when you penetrate someone without consent you have met the criteria for rape. Since you think you are so versed on the legal system, you would know that using a gun aggravates the sentence (increase the baseline) and that alcohol (especially voluntary intoxication) isn't a mitigating factor.
If you are OK with essentially adults (17) passing around your daughters, friend's daughters or just a complete stranger because *gasp* she had some alcohol and giving them the brutal sentence of being in for a minimum of 1 year for a heinous crime then you are just out of touch with the severity of the crime and are nothing more than a rape-sympathizer.
I can only tell everyone how I feel, if I had a daughter and they passed her around drunk and had their way with her against her will then I can assure you those two boys parents in Steubenville would have been making arrangements for a closed casket ceremony.
The problem you don't seem to understand is that I have placed myself in compromising situations, and when a crime was perpetrated against me, I knew it was partially my fault. Hence, if I walk into a gay bar, and I commence to get completely inebriated to the point where I'm blacked out, I know for certain that there's a risk that a gay man might try to take advantage of me. Hence, if I wake up to find out I'm sodomized, it was partially my fault. Furthermore, since I was in a black out, and I have no recollection, how do I know that despite being 100% heterosexual and loving busty Latin brunettes the likes of Monica Bellucchi and Penelope Cruz that I didn't actually consent? Now toss into this mix the fact that I know the gay man because we work together at the club, and it's easy to see that this isn't a black and white slam dunk case and how both the perpetrator and defendant have mitigating circumstances that support both their arguments. That's why there's a huge difference between the situation I explained and some stranger breaking into a house, forcing a strange woman to have sex, and then there being a lot of physical evidence and potential witness to the event. This is why our system, no matter how flawed, recognized that despite your belief system, things aren't always conveniently black and white, and that's why we have varying degrees of punishment for rape, murder, and other serious crimes.
If you don't think that there are parts of this country where you don't belong, you're quite naive. I'm here to tell you as a white male with light skin, eyes, and hair that there are places I have lived and didn't belong, and the black community that dominated the city frequently let me know it. My home and car were frequently vandalized. I used to hang out with the Hispanics because the blacks just wouldn't accept me. I frequently saw a lone Mexican passed out drunk in a bar have his pockets picked by some black patron in the black establishment. I went there because it was two doors down from me, the Mexican went there for reasons unknown to me, but the bottom line is that we both stuck out, we weren't part of the group, and if we got drunk, somebody would always rob us. When young thin attractive black women started hitting on me, I knew it was time to leave because there'd be two - five young black men that would see me as a threat, taking their women, foreign and didn't belong, and I should get back to my own station and women. I knew this to be true because I'd seen it happen too many times to mention.
While volunteering for the neighborhood Catholic church and Habitat for Humanity, I've had lone black kids, and sometimes groups of blacks chant, "This is a black playground, and that's our pizza! Get out white people," simply because a delivery van dropped off pizza for my work group, which happens to be all white people. The black kids wanted free pizza. I've had adult blacks make snide comments while working on some volunteer project, "We don't need whitey helping us!" Spare me the naive thought that everybody is free to go wherever they want. Not to crack on blacks, because I largely despise all social groups, if I go to a white affluent neighborhood in my 1974 Ford F-250 4x4 with 35" mud and snow tires, factory rust and booming 390 4V with dual exhaust, the cops are going to investigate it, and if I get lippy with his investigation or stand on my rights, I could get the smack down and charges that will stick just because I drove through a white part of town where I didn't belong, and I'm white! If I date a girl from that part of town, the parents aren't going to like it. We've all sorts of unwritten gender, race, age, economic etc rules in this country and people do follow them.
If I'm in that same black neighborhood where gunfire was a daily event, crime was all over, and drugs very prolific and I saw you getting robbed, I know if I help you, I might get stabbed or shot too, so rather than look, I simply move on to a safer area.
For those of you that have never lived in dangerous environments, you simply don't know, and your simplistic boy scout logic doesn't apply. A crime is a crime is a crime punishable by death and or life imprisonment is a very flawed belief system. Crimes are very complex, have mitigating circumstances, and we've got a system in place to sort them out. While it's not a perfect system, and I don't like it myself, it's still much better than the frontier justice of the naive where the culpability is always 100% with the perpetrator, and victims are always 100% innocent, never recant their stories, make up lies, forget, and the like.
Define "consent" I've had women tell me no, and when I stopped they got upset because no meant yes. I've met a boatload of women with rape fantasies and they liked to roll play. Then there's women that get drunk, are vindictive, and when they sober up and realize the consequences of their actions, infidelities, and the like, they cry rape. There are cases where women of a different race cry rape when it was really consensual sex. I can't believe that people don't realize that remorse, guilt, and shame also cause false rape accusations probably as often as they cause it to go unreported.
I'm not sorry that I live in an inconvenient reality and I have a hard time believing every story as black and white because I've learned that people don't always tell the truth, are unpredictable, and we live in a very complex society with double standards and unwritten rules.
How anybody could read my post #82 and somehow misinterpret that as championing rape and crime is beyond me. Moreover, I've noticed some of your posts throughout this board, and you seem reasonable, so I would also hope that you could understand my tack.
Last edited by bolillo_loco; 03-26-2013 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: No Rhodes scholar here
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