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Yes, I care that babies - some of whom would grow up to become women - are being sacrificed on the altar of "a woman's choice."
You are the same guy who is always complaining about government when its a question of taxing or regulating something right?
So, that's wrong, but when it comes to questions about sex, personal autonomy, and abortion rights you are perfectly happy with government stepping in and regulating those areas?
Biologically, it is its own entity. If it was part of the woman's body, it would
have her DNA.
If the fetus is not a part of the woman's body, then I guess it is OK if the woman decides to eat, drink, smoke anything she wants or take any drug she fancies, right? Whoo Hoo! I'll have two martinis and a few cigarettes after dinner and smoke a doobie before I go to bed! Good times!
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God induced the spontaneous miscarriage when the bitter water is drank by the unfaithful woman. The bitter water has no effect upon the baby of the
faithful woman, only upon the baby of the unfaithful woman. The priest doesn't
cause the water to have this effect, God does. The priest's job is merely to
hand the cup containing the bitter water to the woman.
Why kill the innocent fetus for the crime of the mother? Why would your god do that?
I guess we can take this to mean your god is OK with women who are raped having an abortion.....kill the father's "fruit of his loins" as punishment for his crime, right? Same goes for incest.....kill the fetus to punish the criminal who impregnated the girl.
I wonder if this would include fetuses conceived outside of the sanctity of marriage too? Sounds like it would to me, so single mothers can abort too.
The only fetuses not eligible for abortion are those conceived in the sanctity of marriage.....that's the way I interpret what your god says.
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Medically, cellular respiration DOES INDEED indicate that an organism is
living. Life cannot occur without cellular respiration.
Cellular respiration indicates that it is alive. The presence of a human
genome indicates that the organism is a human being.
It does not have rights that trump those of the woman just because it is alive. It is nothing more than an organism that has a parasitic relationship with its host, the woman. The woman has the right to have it removed if she doesn't want it there.
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It was worked every single time it has been practiced, ever since Adam and Eve
were created and placed in the garden of Eden.
I would like the answer to the question you have been asked several times.
Should married women refuse to have sex with their husbands if they do not want to chance a pregnancy? If a wife chooses abstinence then the husband automatically becomes abstinent too, right?
...unless their body is located within someone else's body.
It is up to the woman if she wants to allow it to use her body, just as it is up to you to decide if you want someone to use your body by giving them a piece of your liver so they can live.
Why should you get the choice to deny life and not a pregnant women?
You're assuming that because it's not sacred, God doesn't care whether it is killed or not.
He doesn't say anything about protecting fetuses or treating them equal to people.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
A study, with a small sample size, conducted by a group of liberals concluded that most women don't regret having an abortion. Gee, there's no reason to doubt the objectivity of that study.
It wasn't done by a "bunch of liberals." Give me a counter study.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
You need to ask your pastor to explain to you what literalism is. And you also need to understand that although some sins and punishments are enumerated in the Bible, it is not an exhaustive list.
So we are to make up the rest? Good abortion is not murder or a sin. Done.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Biologically, it is its own entity. If it was part of the woman's body, it would have her DNA.
If it was its own entity it would not need direct attachment to her at all times to survive.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
The guys you quoted weren't even theologians, which is VERY shaky ground for claiming that they're any kind of authority on Scriptural analysis.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
God induced the spontaneous miscarriage when the bitter water is drank by the unfaithful woman. The bitter water has no effect upon the baby of the faithful woman, only upon the baby of the unfaithful woman. The priest doesn't cause the water to have this effect, God does. The priest's job is merely to hand the cup containing the bitter water to the woman.
The woman's punishment is the miscarriage, and the resulting public knowledge that she committed adultery.
Annie coveted this one pretty well. Seems like God is in favor of aborting sinful fetuses. And if all the priest does is hand her a cup, then medical abortions for sure are okay, because all the nurse does is hand her a cup.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Medically, cellular respiration DOES INDEED indicate that an organism is living. Life cannot occur without cellular respiration.
Cellular respiration indicates that it is alive. The presence of a human genome indicates that the organism is a human being.
Cellular respiration is necessary for the continued development of the fetus, but that is NOT the BIBLICAL definition of when life begins. Biblically life does not begin until you take your first breath, until God "breathes life into you." The air around us is His breath and it gives us life. The is no air or wind inside the womb. God never mentions or even alludes to anything about cellular respiration as the beginning of life.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
The fact that He didn't exclude them. When God said "Thou shalt not kill," He then went on to cite a specific instance (the execution of murderers) that was to be excluded from the relevant Commandment. He did not cite abortion as an exclusion from the Commandment.
He also details what happens during specific scenarios of sins. Abortion is not one of them.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
You think wrong. There are countless examples in the Bible of God using suffering to reveal Himself to people and to teach lessons.
Also, how can one who has not yet been born "see the light?" I don't think you know what "see the light" means.
But that is not what those passages I quoted said. They say very clearly that an "untimely birth" is preferred over a life of suffering or low quality. The "light" in those instances is the light of day or the sun.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
But not the right to impose your will upon another. And I've already explained, multiple times, how a baby is not part of a woman's body.
But you can impose your morals and will onto women? You seem to have a lot of double standards.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you so dense that you can't see how adoption agencies reduce abortions?
Not really. Adoption agencies have been around for hundreds of years while the rate of abortion continues to fluctuate, often increasing. You know what is proven to reduce abortions, birth control.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Nice attempt at dodging the question. I knew you wouldn't answer it, because you can't do so without destroying your entire position.
No I didn't. I can't speak for every person who's had or preformed an abortion, though most are just normal people just trying to live their lives.
Tell me how every single anti abortion person treats Jesus please. Do you think Jesus would be happy with them standing outside clinics berating and screaming at women. Harassing and cursing them while they go in for health exams. Do you think He would be okay with them casting stones like that? Do you think He is okay with judging others for their choices instead of turning the other cheek?
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
You need to look up the definition of "enable."
Enable:
give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something
Birth control does not give people the ability to have sex, it gives them the ability to prevent pregnancy, which prevents abortions. You want to prevent abortions you need to help provide birth control to those who need it.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
It was worked every single time it has been practiced, ever since Adam and Eve were created and placed in the garden of Eden.
The theory of abstinence works, but in reality people have sex. They always have and they always will. Show a society, particularly a modern society which has put into the PRACTICE of abstinence with success. I'll show you a failure: the United States.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
You're twisting yourself into a pretzel to excuse the woman of any responsibility for her actions while shifting the responsibility for them onto me.
1. The woman doesn't have to have sex.
2. If a woman chooses to have sex, then she should be responsible for ensuring that some form of contraception is used.
3. If a woman gets pregnant, she doesn't have to have an abortion.
4. A woman who chooses to have sex has no right to expect others to pay for her birth control.
5. A woman who gets pregnant has no right to expect someone else to pay for her abortion - especially not those who are morally opposed to abortion.
You are still trying to pass judgments without taking any action.
1. Sex is a biological need, so yes men and WOMEN need to have sex. If the only point of sex was to make a baby, then our sex drives would be much lower it would not provide us with other health benefits such as lower blood pressure and reduced stress.
2. Women want to be responsible. If they didn't then the price of birth control wouldn't matter. When it's free or very low cost, women who can't otherwise afford it, use it and use it effectively. Proven fact.
3. Some have to, some choose to, either way it's none of your business, but if you want fewer of them, give them birth control.
4. No one expects it or sits down at PP demanding free birth control, just as no homeless person demands free food at a soup kitchen, but it sure is nice when it is offered with love to those in need and your obligation to Jesus is to serve others in need no matter who they are what their need.
5. No one pays for an abortion except for the woman or couple involved.
And I will ask you again to provide me with verses that specifically talk about abortions or the removal of a fetus from the womb, whether they are literal or metaphorical.
Of course abortion should be legal. It's a private matter between a woman, her partner and her medical care provider and she should consult her own religious or spiritual beliefs.
If you believe that government should be involved in the decision to terminate a pregnancy, remember that the government that can prevent you from having an abortion can also compel you to have an abortion. Government should stay out of the decision.
I'm not sure of your point. Except for Ireland, all the countries you mentioned now have legal abortion. And they are likely to remain that way. The U.S. is about the only developed country with legal abortion that has a majority of the population opposed to it and actively attempting to return to an earlier paradigm.
This was in response to the poster who asked what countries had illegalised abortions recently.
While I am not aware of any developed countries that just started making them illegal, the list show that many kept them illegal until fairly recently, and Ireland still mostly forbids them.
I spent the first 1/3 of my life living in a very poor Brooklyn ghetto, and all my contacts, relatives and lovers were poor and marginalized. Although poor, my family is quite upwardly mobile. The church I attended was exactly the same way. One way or another I have been witness to or heard first hand of dozens of abortion procedures of friends, lovers and close acquaintances.
During the second third of my life I moved to the Midwest and because of an interracial relationship, lived in a wealthy suburb with an exclusively upscale population. It had never occurred to me to think that any other kind but the poor women who looked like me back in the ghetto, might need to have abortions. I met several women who had had at least one, and in one case two. These are women with degrees from Universities you have heard of. Women that went right from college into jobs paying $80K/yr. Smart. Pretty. Successful. One very close friend had an abortion during the first year of her marriage. It was just too soon in their married life to start on parenting. They have four children today. They have been married at least 25 years. Had they kept that first child it is an open question as to whether their marriage would have survived. We are talking about people whose parents are in the 1% here.
Abortion will never go away for the wealthy. The hypocrites in this thread talk about "hookers and tramps" but hookers and tramps don't have huge numbers of children OR abortions. Hypocrites want to force poor women into serving life sentences for the crime of fornication. Seems fair on its face, but... is it? But more to the point, if there were no safe and legal abortion and no State welfare, these poor, unloved children WOULD wind up in State criminal custody ($$$) or as military conscripts where they can participate in America's program of International Dominance. And best of all, with the dismantlement of all Social Programs there would be no tax revenue needed by the IRS. All the money hypocrites make would go into their investment portfolios.
There are words to the effect of "heaping up wrath against the day of anger". Hypocrites should know those words well even if they do not acknowledge that this is what they are doing with regards to people that do not look like them. When hypocrites mob the small private clinics that provide abortions to the nice young women that just had an unfortunate circumstance, instead of the downtown Planned Parenthood Center, I will take back what I have said. When hypocrites start hiring Americans that do not look like them in proportion to their percent of the U.S. population I will take back what I have said.
While I generally oppose abortions on moral grounds, I agree with much of what you said.
I do believe that late term abortions should be made illegal unless there's a compelling medical reason.
Again, how did he command them to get involved? Based on an ancient book that, by your own admission, should not be taken literally?
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
I love pointing out the hypocrisy of a sinful human quoting Jesus in verse, as if they are sinless like Jesus!
So only sinless Christians are allowed to quote the bible? Better tell that to all the cheating, fornicating, porn-watching, judgmental, breaking-every-commandment-every-day Christians out there. Or is it okay for them, as long as they repent on Sundays?
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
I already mentioned the Scripture where God allows humans to form governments to maintain the order He created. This is why it is folly to use man's law as the model for evaluating God's law.
Yes, it is thankfully illegal to perpetrate all the horrible things encouraged (commanded?) by God's law.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Fine by me. If the death penalty were enforced against cheaters, there'd be a lot less cheating going on.
You can't be serious.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Denial of science & circular reasoning.
How is a woman's legal right to abort an unwanted pregnancy denial of science?
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
Obviously, the parts that are metaphors, symbolism, etc. aren't to be taken literally.
How do you know that? And, for example, the command to kill adulterers is not a symbolism or metaphor, so in order to abide by the bible, killing adulterers should be perfectly legal. As you stated above, that is fine by you, but it is not okay with the vast majority of law abiding citizens.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
More denial. God didn't created life with the intention that humans be allowed to destroy it, save for the allowance he made for executing murderers.
Invading foreign countries and slaughtering innocent civilians is not executing murderers.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
You don't seem to be following any logical pattern here.
When you said
that was a non sequitur in light of the fact that I had previously said that your previous conditional statement was false, and that the Christians oppose abortion regardless of the faith of the woman having the abortion.
Again, you can't condemn people for breaking one commandment while ignoring them breaking all the others. Why not go after gluttons, adulterers, greedy people (big corporations, I could get behind that), people who covet their neighbor's spouse, etc.
Again, you can't condemn people for breaking one commandment while ignoring them breaking all the others. Why not go after gluttons, adulterers, greedy people (big corporations, I could get behind that), people who covet their neighbor's spouse, etc.
That's the funny thing isn't. There are not "Christians" standing outside banks, corporate offices or billionaires houses spouting hate and damning them to hell for their greedly sins even though Jesus is VERY specific about the fact that greed is a deadly sin and talks about it dozens of times (yet not a single mention of abortion).
You don't see hoards of Christians standing outside of McDonald's or Burger King berating fat people for the sins of gluttony, for taking more than they need instead of feeding the poor. That is why I found that whole Chick-fi-la nonsense so ironic. If all those "Christians" had purchased a chicken sandwich and fed it to a homeless person, that would have been one thing, but instead those hypocrites stood in line to stuff their own fat faces. How would Jesus feel about that??
You don't see Christians calling for a mass of public stonings over proven acts of adultery; probably because most of them would be stoned to death themselves.
You don't see conservative "Christians" doing those things, because that isn't part of GOP brainwashing.
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Sounds like it would to me, so single mothers can abort too.
You don't seem to be following any logical pattern here.
