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1. And people see what you folks are up to as well.
Hypocrisy.
You will go on and chastise me for generalising, as you generalise and lump me in with those other "folks".
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
Yes, facts are facts.
Yes. Facts are facts. Even when they make you uncomfortable.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
But to trot out the same stats multiple times per week is not necessary.
Why is it not necessary? Apparently, you folks (see, I can generalise, too) are still arguing against the facts. You know that arguing against facts is not a winning approach?
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
You're not the one most guilty of this, but you play the game, as well.
Why should anyone be deemed guilty of posting facts? What an odd thing?
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
Frankly, we all pretty much know the basics of the stats, and what we are saying is that people are more important than stats.
Rubbish.
Yes, of course people are important. But, when the topic of the discussion requires a comparison and contrast of various minority populations, then actually, individual anecdotal examples are useless, except to those idiots who believe that character and intelligence are a function of race and or ethnicity.
It is not possible to discuss this topic without generalising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
2. I don't know what you do for a living, but there are tons of people more successful than you. Why? Shall we go the stats? Or shall we look at you as an individual?
Who cares? My individual success or lack thereof is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Of course some people are more successful than I am, regardless even of how we define success.
But, so what? The topic of this thread is not a comparison and contrast of various individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
3. If I saw a post or two of yours that seemed to lean too heavily on the stats issue, then I'd not make any real judgement. But it isn't one or two posts or even one or two threads when you fairly consistently jump to the stats card. I don't see you stating stats about middle class Black neighborhoods, such as a number of neighborhoods in Prince Georges and Montgomery County, Maryland, or many of the middle class Black neighborhoods in and around Atlanta. No, it's always the inner city stats.
Again, those successful middle class black families and communities are important to this present discussion only to the extent that they raise the average for the entire sub-set of the minority population made up of ALL black people in America.
I'm delighted that many black people are successful, and never have I denied the existence of successful blacks. But, we are discussing entire minority populations, not merely a sub-set of the black population. By the same token, when I discuss, for instance, the Vietnamese population in the US, I look at the entire population in general, even though I know that there are problems in that community, particularly a high incidence of gang activity. But, in general, the Vietnamese are doing relatively well.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
4. No, I'm not closing my eyes. I simply do not accept your view of our nation, your view of Blacks in America, or your view of minorities in America. And while stats are not irrelevant, I base my views on my own interactions with Black students and parents and the general public in and around Washington, D.C. over 30 years of living there.
1. You have no idea what I think of black America or any minority population or of whites in America.
2. AGAIN, basing your opinion of your own anecdotal experiences is not a particularly meaningful way to see the big picture, so to speak. I don't need to explain why this is so, do I?
Last edited by Salmonburgher; 07-31-2016 at 10:14 AM..
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi 1. And people see what you folks are up to as well.
Hypocrisy.
You will go on and chastise me for generalising, as you generalise and lump me in with those other "folks".
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi Yes, facts are facts.
Yes. Facts are facts. Even when they make you uncomfortable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi But to trot out the same stats multiple times per week is not necessary.
Why is it not necessary? Apparently, you folks (see, I can generalise, too) are still arguing against the facts. You know that arguing against facts is not a winning approach?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi You're not the one most guilty of this, but you play the game, as well.
Why should anyone be deemed guilty of posting facts? What an odd thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi Frankly, we all pretty much know the basics of the stats, and what we are saying is that people are more important than stats.
Rubbish.
Yes, of course people are important. But, when the topic of the discussion requires a comparison and contrast of various minority populations, then actually, individual anecdotal examples are useless, except to those idiots who believe that character and intelligence are a function of race and or ethnicity.
It is not possible to discuss this topic without generalising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi 2. I don't know what you do for a living, but there are tons of people more successful than you. Why? Shall we go the stats? Or shall we look at you as an individual?
Who cares? My individual success or lack thereof is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Of course some people are more successful than I am, regardless even of how we define success.
But, so what? The topic of this thread is not a comparison and contrast of various individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi 3. If I saw a post or two of yours that seemed to lean too heavily on the stats issue, then I'd not make any real judgement. But it isn't one or two posts or even one or two threads when you fairly consistently jump to the stats card. I don't see you stating stats about middle class Black neighborhoods, such as a number of neighborhoods in Prince Georges and Montgomery County, Maryland, or many of the middle class Black neighborhoods in and around Atlanta. No, it's always the inner city stats.
Again, those successful middle class black families and communities are important to this present discussion only to the extent that they raise the average for the entire sub-set of the minority population made up of ALL black people in America.
I'm delighted that many black people are successful, and never have I denied the existence of successful blacks. But, we are discussing entire minority populations, not merely a sub-set of the black population. By the same token, when I discuss, for instance, the Vietnamese population in the US, I look at the entire population in general, even though I know that there are problems in that community, particularly a high incidence of gang activity. But, in general, the Vietnamese are doing relatively well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi 4. No, I'm not closing my eyes. I simply do not accept your view of our nation, your view of Blacks in America, or your view of minorities in America. And while stats are not irrelevant, I base my views on my own interactions with Black students and parents and the general public in and around Washington, D.C. over 30 years of living there.
1. You have no idea what I think of black America or any minority population or of whites in America.
2. AGAIN, basing your opinion of your own anecdotal experiences is not a particularly meaningful way to see the big picture, so to speak. I don't need to explain why this is so, do I?
Response:
The reason that it is not necessary to continually and repeatedly post the same old stats is that we've seen them every week, multiple times and we get the point you and others are making -- that Blacks have inferior behavior.
No, it's not facts that make me uncomfortable, it's the subtle racism (let alone overt racism) of so many posters on this forum who continuously see the need to put Black people down.
Stats, which I often used in my profession are tricky things. Simply phrase a question in a survey differently and you get totally different sets of stats. Stats are a part of the story. A small part. And in the case of City-Data radical right posters, stats are used as a club (as in bludgeon) to pound the you're inferior concept into the psyche of Blacks.
No one is guilty for posting fair stats, but one can be guilty for posting facts for ulterior motives.
I said people are more important than stats, and you replied "Rubbish". I don't think I even need to expand on what that says about you.
But when you talked about the success of the Vietnamese, you never mentioned the Vietnamese gang problem...until now. How convenient to leave out the balancing information.
Yes, I criticize you for generalizing because I don't think it's necessary for people like you to continually generalize about your perspective that Black behavior is substandard, which tarnishes every Black person. Rather than repeatedly post such implications behind the anonymous safety of your keyboard, why don't you go out into the inner city closest to you and tell your opinions with your statistics to those you're talking about and tell them how they should lead their lives?
There are people who uplift.
There are people who tear down.
No, it's not facts that make me uncomfortable, it's the subtle racism (let alone overt racism) of so many posters on this forum who continuously see the need to put Black people down.
Posting facts regarding behaviour is NOT racist, subtle or overt, unless there is an assertion that such behaviour is a function of race.
Its that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Stats, which I often used in my profession are tricky things. Simply phrase a question in a survey differently and you get totally different sets of stats. Stats are a part of the story. A small part. And in the case of City-Data radical right posters, stats are used as a club (as in bludgeon) to pound the you're inferior concept into the psyche of Blacks.
1. Yes, most people understand that stats can be used (or abused) and manipulated. However, when the stats are plainly presented to counter a false narrative, such as that cops are out hunting black men, then the stats are valuable and provide a realistic picture of what in fact is going on.
2. I don't believe that people use stats to bludgeon anyone. Rather, stats are used to show that some narratives are false or highly misleading. I think that is a fair use of facts and stats. I don't think blacks are inferior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
No one is guilty for posting fair stats, but one can be guilty for posting facts for ulterior motives.
Paranoid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
I said people are more important than stats, and you replied "Rubbish". I don't think I even need to expand on what that says about you.
Actually, it illustrates your poor reading comprehension. My "Rubbish" comment was directed at your repeated assertion that generalising was counter-productive. Immediately after my "Rubbish" remark, I stated "Yes, of course people are important".
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
But when you talked about the success of the Vietnamese, you never mentioned the Vietnamese gang problem...until now. How convenient to leave out the balancing information.
Good god, are you being intentionally obtuse? I've explained several times the reason for generalising in this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Yes, I criticize you for generalizing because I don't think it's necessary for people like you to continually generalize about your perspective that Black behavior is substandard, which tarnishes every Black person.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the black community needs to step up. You don't want to hear/listen to criticisms from outside the community, and apparently you don't like hearing criticisms from conservative blacks (aka Uncle Toms)... If such criticisms tarnish every black person (I don't actually buy that), then successful blacks need to start pushing a different agenda within the community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Rather than repeatedly post such implications behind the anonymous safety of your keyboard, why don't you go out into the inner city closest to you and tell your opinions with your statistics to those you're talking about and tell them how they should lead their lives?
Would anyone listen?
I live in a nation with virtually no welfare and with virtually no out-of-wedlock childbirth... People where I live are dependent upon themselves and their families.
And that sort of dovetails with the topic of this discussion, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
There are people who uplift.
There are people who tear down.
Well, if no one in the community being denigrated with data will listen...oh forget it. I will end my back and forth with you by just saying I stand by my critique of your intentions. Post your data. Make yourself feel warm and fuzzy.
Well, if no one in the community being denigrated with data will listen...oh forget it.
Data is neutral. It doesn't denigrate anyone. Its just there to be observed, and hopefully, if need be, acted upon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
I will end my back and forth with you by just saying I stand by my critique of your intentions.
You stand in error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Post your data. Make yourself feel warm and fuzzy.
Like I said, data is neutral. Facts. You look at the data and the facts and you consider your notions. If the data and facts do not support your notions, it may be a good idea to reconsider things.
Data is neutral. It doesn't denigrate anyone. Its just there to be observed, and hopefully, if need be, acted upon.
You stand in error.
Like I said, data is neutral. Facts. You look at the data and the facts and you consider your notions. If the data and facts do not support your notions, it may be a good idea to reconsider things.
On the other hand:
Quote:
The old saying is that “figures will not lie,” but a new saying is “liars will figure.”
Tough luck if the facts make you uncomfortable. That's your problem.
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