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If UBI replaces the current welfare system it would not cost any more than we already pay out. The current system rewards some undeserving people with free everything while other more deserving people get nothing. Or it takes two years to first receive any benefits and by that time they are financially destroyed.
In an ideal world everyone should pull their own weight. In our modern world that is increasingly difficult. There are people with good work ethic who are not employable. The old saying was "at least dig a ditch". But not one person with a machine can dig a ditch. A couple dudes with dynamite and a dump truck can mine a mountain of coal that used to employ 300 miners for the same task.
So every adult would get how much money in your mind?
I get real tired of all the proponents of UBI and their wanting to free people from employment. The notion goes that not needing a job people will volunteer, pursue their creative side and take care of aging parents. Of course people do all those things now while also working, i.e. most of the musicians in Austin Texas, the live music capital of the world, do music as a hobby and for a little extra money. For every 20 year old that volunteers there will be 9 others that will smoke pot and netflix/playstation all day. I'm thinking a lot of proponents have never found a job they liked or are in a dead end job with less compensation and they see UBI as a way out.
My second counterargument is that keeping people out of the labor pool hurts everyone. It hurts people who depend on services and it hurts people who could be gaining job experience by enticing them to the sidelines to watch the world pass them by. I have a theory that you need to have X number of jobs in Y number of fields before you find the perfect, best job for you. By not being engaged in the workforce it will take longer to get to this perfect job for you or it may never be reached at all.
Third, is this number being thrown around almost every time UBI comes up - $1200/month. Sorry that is not enough to live on and the idea of working part time for the rest of my life plus that amount of money is too depressing. I would do so many other things before going that route.
Fourth is the inconvenient truth that the less people working the less money that is being paid in taxes. Therefore if 10 million drop out of the workforce the rest of us working have to make up for them plus what we already pay. F THAT. Yes, I know they will tax rich people to pay for it, but really that money should be going toward our federal budget deficit and not your 28 year old kid living in the basement.
Fifth, is it truly universal in that everyone gets it? If there are exclusions like those making over $X then there is no way to call it "universal." If you start excluding certain group you cannot honestly call it universal.
Sixth, is that I can't imagine the entire world of social programs will be vanquished for UBI. Its just too much change to established bureaucracies and their applicants to ever happen. Maybe they could remove SNAP or do a few small things but there would be incredible push back.
Last edited by verybadgnome; 04-28-2020 at 07:55 PM..
Not really. The stimulus is a one time check. The issue of how the unemployment is not being processed fast enough or at all makes a temporary UBI far more palatable.
How is UbI in any way an alternative to UI. It doesn't target the same people.
You are correct about automation. I forget the figures but, thanks to advances in technology, we as individual workers are massively more productive than workers were in the 60s. But when adjust for inflation, workers today earn substantially less. Which means one person is now earning less but is doing the work of multiple people. And thanks to automation, those other people whose job automation replaced-they don’t have a job to go to.
I think that’s a rose-colored view of how the wealthy will respond. Historically they have not been so generous. I think it’s more likely they continue to work to erode workers right and reduce the lower class to slave labor. Eventually we will return to more of a feudal system, except it will be run by corporations instead of royalty. UBI is the only alternative solution, but people have been taught for so long to believe in their own power and the mythical bootstrap argument that I do t think they will get on board.
We already have a solution. The labor participation rate in the US in 2019 was only about 60%. That counts people between the ages of 15 and 64. You can expect the kids to still be in school, so about a third of the US population of working age doesn't even hold a part time job. That was in a period of record low unemployment.
If you back out the ever-virtuous women being supported by their husbands, the bottom quarter of the US population is either physically or mentally unemployable. We have a whole laundry list of social programs that care for their needs, all funded by the government and administered by an army of well paid bureaucrats, also paid by the government. Our current system is far from free.
The people who object to the UBI on social grounds have a point, but our current system is also destructive to both society and the individual. As in all recessions, we're going to find out how many jobs we really don't need. Judging from past experience, half of the jobs we have lost to the shutdown will not come back any time soon. People on the dole will get out of shape and indolent. If they had any skills, they will get rusty. A large part of the population will end the shutdown behind on their rent and bills. They won't be feeding the consumer society that has been floating America for decades. Faced with declining sales, businesses will lay off more workers because they can't afford them. If you want to extend unemployment benefits for a year, welcome to a de facto UBI that the country just stumbled into with no planning.
If we go to a UBI, I would like to see it coupled with a 2 year required service when somebody signs up. One place we do need labor is field hands. It's at the core of our illegal immigrant problem. The little boys and girls can get out there and get dirty and sunburned. It's seasonal, so they can look for a job to get off the dole in the winter. Meanwhile, they could be rotated to different parts of the country to find out how others live, which would break up the regional factionalism that is hurting the country so badly. We're still funding a freaking draft board, we may as well use it.
Face it, America is decadent and America is soft. If we don't take active measures, the coming recession will make that worse. If we are going to pay people to live, we should get something for our money. Right now we're just pissing it away.
What work can we do with perfect social distancing measures we have in place and keep the workers entirely safe? I keep asking about the same the question and get deflected about a general time. This is MUCH different than any recession any of us living right now lived and worked through.
I don't hate it because we basically already have it. Welfare and various social programs make UBI unnecessary. People who cannot work can get help in a myriad of ways.
There are so few Americans who starve to death each year that it is not even tracked. Even now, with school year cancelled, meals are provided to students who need them.
We don't need UBI.
If we go to a UBI, I would like to see it coupled with a 2 year required service when somebody signs up. One place we do need labor is field hands. It's at the core of our illegal immigrant problem. The little boys and girls can get out there and get dirty and sunburned. It's seasonal, so they can look for a job to get off the dole in the winter. Meanwhile, they could be rotated to different parts of the country to find out how others live, which would break up the regional factionalism that is hurting the country so badly. We're still funding a freaking draft board, we may as well use it.
Forced relocation to work camps? You're not merely a socialist, you're a full-fledged communist.
To me, UBI is the same as welfare for healthy, able bodied young men. That's a big turn-off.
Plus, if you hand out $1,000 every month (or name your own amount) then everything would get more expensive, plus you would have the added expense of administering the system.
The state of Alaska has something like UBI (fossil fuel royalty payments). Check out the prices of everyday goods up there some time.
The high price of goods in Alaska has more to do with the distance and terrain, that products must be transported there, it has little to do with the 'UBI'-like system in place.
Imo, many companies and industries would HATE this, because those that rely on MW workers and workers that look for the $10-12 per hour jobs, those are the people that would be receiving the UBI...and these companies would be hard pressed to find anyone to work for them.
I'm against giving people "free" money to sit on their couch, because as a person who actually pays (a lot) taxes already, I will be taxed even more for this handout, yet will not qualify for the UBI as I will undoubtedly be above the thresholds.
The "U' in UBI means universal, so you are automatically included!
To me, UBI is the same as welfare for healthy, able bodied young men. That's a big turn-off.
Plus, if you hand out $1,000 every month (or name your own amount) then everything would get more expensive, plus you would have the added expense of administering the system.
The state of Alaska has something like UBI (fossil fuel royalty payments). Check out the prices of everyday goods up there some time.
Prices in Alaska are driven by distance and difficulty getting anything to anywhere. The annual oil dividend is something like $1,000, which isn't going to inflate prices much at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
These people, like all people, should be saving 10-20% of their take-home pay when they are working. This money should go into an emergency fund until you have saved 1-2 years of income. Then, when you are unemployed, you are providing for yourself and not sucking off others. Plus, no rush on finding a new job. You would have 1-2 years to be re-employed.
The problem with UBI is you are taking money involuntarily from some people for the unearned and undeserved benefit of others. That’s immoral and wrong.
Kind of hard to save at all when you are trying to live on $20k per year, which is a $10/hour wage, especially in a major urban area. It doesn't help that many employers actively look for ways to cut pay, benefits, and working conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Perhaps we need private unemployment insurance that anyone can purchase. Why does this need to be a function of the state? It doesn’t. It can be provided by the insurance industry, and we could price shop it and select the best provider based on free market performance, reviews, etc.
UI only works because it's a forced pay in. Make the gig workers pay in, and they could collect UI. There also needs to be some changes in how contract workers are defined.
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