Russian Migrant Identity Struggle-‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore (Congress, borders)
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Why is there a need for a divisive language policy at all? In the U.S., Britain and Australia English is not the official language. It is a commonly used "working language." Let people speak what they speak and provide services in commonly spoken languages where they are spoken. ..
If we're brave (foolhardy?), we can venture to the Politics forum and witness the scorn and derision from some quarters, against anyone who dares to regard English as only the "working language" of the US. Instead, it is believed that for example speaking Spanish in public (the target of scorn is overwhelmingly Spanish) is uncouth and downright unpatriotic... or what, if Putin were the judge here, might be dubbed "the fifth column".
Any society, even the most pluralistic, is wont to regard "the other" as being inferior and threatening. It is understandable why former Soviet republics would thus view askance the speaking of Russian, in their newly independent lands. Doesn't in the least make it right, or wise, or humane... but in the context of human tribalism worldwide, it is certainly understandable.
Returning to our theme, for persons of Russian extraction now living in the West, there is likely to be a feeling of discomfort and embarrassment, not at being foreigners or having funny accents or weird-sounding names, but in being tarred as "one of them", of being accused, however glancingly, of collective guilt. This is especially acute for ethnic Russians who mingle with other ex-Soviet emigrants, who use Russian as the common language.
In hindsight, it seems to me that best would have been - in 1991 - a redrawing of Ukraine's borders, where lands formerly in Poland would rejoin Poland, eastern "border lands" would join Russia, and the rest would form a core Ukraine that becomes a country with Western aspirations, such as say Slovakia or Bulgaria. Ironicaly, it is likely that something like this will actually happen, in 2022-2023, after enorous bloodshed and suffering.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
It's not only about horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. I'm second generation Ukrainian-American and was in grammar school in the aftermath of Joe McCarthy's witch hunts. Heard a lot of crap about being a COMMIE! and developed some pretty good fighting skills because of it.
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
We are a social/tribal species. Identity is deeply imbued in our natures.
Of course, identity is many things. Nationality. Ethnicity. Race. Religion. Language. Sex. Sexual orientation. Ideology. This is not an exhaustive list.
It is evolution that has made us what we are. At one time, identity was life or death. It still is, is many situations. Jared Diamond has written of his time as an anthropologist in New Guinea, about two individuals from different groups who chance upon each other. A ritual then follows wherein they discuss their extended families. What they are trying to do is find some common familial link, no matter how remote. If they can do that, they are of the same group and can part in peace. If not, then mortal combat ensues. Even this represents an advance over the days when a Homo sapiens might encounter someone from the next valley over, an 'other' who might directly or indirectly threaten that person's survival. Happily, modern civilization (which largely consists of rules that work to circumvent evolution-driven impulses that served us well in the wild, but which amount to a net cost to society) no longer requires that if we visit another country we have to hack to death everyone we see. But the tribalism remains.
I think it can be easy in the United States to lose sight of the power of the national/ethnic power of identity. We - link our Canadian friends to the North, like Australians and a few other countries, are primarily a hodgepodge of ethnicities. Yes, we're Americans, but Americanism is a very new thing and is constantly receiving a strong influx of new contributors in the form of immigrants. Comparatively, Russianism is ancient. It runs deeper. And Russia, where nearly 1 in 4 Russians (in a national sense) are not Russians (in an ethnic sense), is a place where ethnicity is a comparatively important marker.
As for myself, I am a mix of numerous northwestern European ethnicities. My surname is German. Very German. As in, people hear it and immediately think of the Third Reich. But the United States had its paroxysm of anti-German hysteria during the First World War, and since then German-ness hasn't been much of an issue at all. I look like the generic American majority. I'm not just German. There's English in there, and Scandinavian (Norwegian and Danish), Irish and French and some Swiss. Probably more, but that's all I know about. None of these have a strong pull on me. I live in a part of the country that is very Scandinavian, so those roots pique my curiosity a bit, as does the German-ness manifested by my last name. Then there's the Anglo aspect that permeates America, from the English language to many of our civic and social customs. There's curiosity there, but no great pull. My Irish roots? French? I'm afraid I feel nothing, though I certainly have nothing against Ireland or France. Part of this is probably due to the fact that my most recent ancestors to come to the United States did so in the 1870s. I never met any of them. I barely got a chance to meet a member or two of the first-born generation before they died of old age when I was a young child. Of course, for many, the pull of the identity of the 'old country' is stronger.
Part of it is also that I am very wary of tribalism. I don't particularly want to identify as X, thereby creating a counter group (the 'others', or everyone who isn't part of X). I consider ideology far more important than my national identity. I believe in certain principles of liberty. Those principles bond me to someone from Vancouver or Liverpool or Brisbane or Munich or Sapporo or Buenos Aires or Lagos who believes the same more than it bonds me to someone holding antithetical views from Milwaukee or Amarillo or Cincinnati on the basis of shared citizenship. At the same time, I recognize that I share a political interest with that latter group that I do not share with the former group, and that must be addressed as a practical matter - but that's a different sort of kinship.
It should be noted that many of our identities overlap. There are Russians (in the ethnic sense) in Russia, and there are also Ukrainians and Tatars and Kazakhs and Germans and Karelians and many others - who are not ethnically Russian but are Russian in terms of nationality. Perhaps other languages have ways of differentiating between these identities, but English often uses the same word for both ethnicity and citizenship. This often leads to the demand that one has to choose: "Well? Are you Russian [for example] or are you American?", but this misses the point that one can be Russian in an ethnic sense and American in a national sense. So there is nothing the state of Germany, or any German(s) could do that would shame me, because I am 150 years removed from my connection with that country. But I understand that a Russian immigrant to the United States, or a second-generation immigrant, for whom the identity of the 'motherland's is far stronger than I can even know, may well feel different. I also know that with each succeeding generation, the pull of Russia will fade. So it is for all immigrants. There was a time when the United States was horrified at the encroaching German-ness, and its German newspapers and the German-only schools. Once the Irish and the Italians and their Catholicism was seen as insidious. Not any more. So it goes. There is dual citizenship, which invariably conjures demands of "Are you one of us or not?". Russian (ethnicity) and American (nationality) can comfortably exist side by side. Indeed, the idea that one cannot identify as Russian (for example - any ethnicity will do) in an ethnic sense and American in a national sense is illogical. But it's predictable. Because of the tribalism imbued deeply within our natures.
Like I said earlier, I really hold to no ethnicity. But to the question that this thread addresses, that is because of my circumstances. It does not bother me that some do. On the way to the store earlier today, I passed a house flying the Swedish flag. Am I concerned that this means the person within isn't really American? That they hold some secret allegiance to Stockholm? No. They're just someone who identifies on some level as Swedish, and I don't see that as encroaching in any way on their American-ness.
So the modern Russian beyond the borders of Russia who feels the stigma of the behavior of the Russian state as it relates to the current war does not surprise me at all, even though I would not feel it regarding the actions of the countries where my ancestors dwelt. It strikes me as a fairly typical consequence of our tribal nature - and, as noted, of an affiliation that fades with time.
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
I'm lucky that everyone in my family's history is super awesome, did all kinds of super cool things, and came from really cool backgrounds and countries. It makes it easy to appreciate and like my family roots and my background. I mean, literally the right side of every single battle and historical issue, and from families that ... as they say in Game of Thrones, are "high born." Hahah...
I have no idea what it must be like if say... your grandfather was a NAZI German officer, or your grandma was Margaret Sanger, or you were a descendant of one of Fidel's bastard children.
But one thing that does bother me is this nonsense... (the article you linked). So what... is the entire country of Russia to be blamed for Vladimir Putin? These are people taking their absurd politics to a totally ridiculous level. With the exception of those in the Russian mafia living in Sunny Isles Beach, FL, and the odd number of Russians on VISA in and around D.C. (espionage / FSB), the vast majority of people who have come to the United States from Russia are what makes America, American. These are people who want capitalism, they want freedom, they want liberty... they are escaping a dictatorship and are EXACTLY the kinds of people that make America great.
People have to get their **** together.
This is somewhat of a "soft" repeat of what they did to the Japanese during WW2, and for Muslims after 9/11.
So the modern Russian beyond the borders of Russia who feels the stigma of the behavior of the Russian state as it relates to the current war does not surprise me at all, even though I would not feel it regarding the actions of the countries where my ancestors dwelt. It strikes me as a fairly typical consequence of our tribal nature - and, as noted, of an affiliation that fades with time.
Great discussion with which I largely agree.
We are far enough beyond the OP for me to reiterate my fundamental belief about Europeans and Asians in the U.S.; they came to get away from their roots and the various craziness, not to relive or exacerbate them. One of the reasons I oppose "multiculturalism" is that it binds individual immigrants that don't want to be bound. The daughters of certain Asians and Africans want to pick their own life partners, not have them assigned by their fathers, often on pain of "honor killing." Some but not all Western authorities have turned a "blind eye" towards honor killing out of "respect" for imported cultures. I believe that we should presume that a Russian that has made it to the U.S. wants no part of Putinism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atari2600
But one thing that does bother me is this nonsense... (the article you linked). So what... is the entire country of Russia to be blamed for Vladimir Putin? These are people taking their absurd politics to a totally ridiculous level. With the exception of those in the Russian mafia living in Sunny Isles Beach, FL, and the odd number of Russians on VISA in and around D.C. (espionage / FSB), the vast majority of people who have come to the United States from Russia are what makes America, American. These are people who want capitalism, they want freedom, they want liberty... they are escaping a dictatorship and are EXACTLY the kinds of people that make America great.
People have to get their **** together.
See above. Most Russians, except spies, are here because Putin's Russia is what they did not want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atari2600
This is somewhat of a "soft" repeat of what they did to the Japanese during WW2, and for Muslims after 9/11.
Those are two different situations entirely. That being said, a solid majority of Muslims, including a former next-door neighbor and another who is a current tennis partner, are here for the right reasons, to better themselves and make America greater. Others, however, want to preserve their "way of life." I do not want Waziristan in America. See Waziristan: 'The most dangerous place in the world'.
I had one high school classmate who was from Iran and insisted everyone refer to him as Persian.
That was not likely due to a feeling of shame for being from Iran. Many Iranians identify as Persian. It's the actual name of the dominant ethnic group in Iran.
I had one high school classmate who was from Iran and insisted everyone refer to him as Persian.
Even some universities call their Iranian language/Iranian Studies department "Persian", and have done so since the departments were created. It harks back to the days of the Persian Empire, which had quite an influence in the region, in its day. I'm not sure at what point in history the current borders were established, and the country took the name "Iran".
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
I don't see how the bolded applies to your topic. Are people hating Russian emigres because of the Czar's policies, or Stalin's? Your topic is about the current crisis, and how it affects mainly the post-Soviet wave of emigration. Or at least, that's what the article you chose is about. But you seem to be mixing apples and oranges in your introduction. Sorry, I'm finding it confusing. It seems like you're putting up two different topics in the same thread.
There are plenty of descendants of Russians around, whose emigre grandparents or great-grandparents never experienced the USSR, much less Putin. Their emigre forebears didn't relate to the USSR at all, nor to the current regime. These were foreign elements with no relevance to their identity, from their perspective. They have nothing to be ashamed of. Neither do the vast majority of Russian immigres. It's only those who are running from the current crisis, who are struggling with this.
And I can't really blame them; it's such a bizarre thing to explode upon the world stage, seemingly out of nowhere. I guess the younger generations didn't really know their leader, even though he took control of news media very quickly (among other issues). You'd think all the journalists fleeing for their lives would have been aware of that; it's nothing new. But no one was expecting a war, and a law prohibiting use of the word "war" to describe the invasion.
I live in the middle of a large Russian emigre community right now. No one is having a problem with their heritage or identity. No one's getting harassed. The people who are getting harassed are the young Russians seeking refuge in countries Russia has always dominated: Georgia (no surprise there!), Armenia, and anywhere else in the former Soviet sphere.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 05-08-2022 at 08:13 AM..
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and developed some pretty good fighting skills because of it. 
But the United States had its paroxysm of anti-German hysteria during the First World War, and since then German-ness hasn't been much of an issue at all. I look like the generic American majority. I'm not just German. There's English in there, and Scandinavian (Norwegian and Danish), Irish and French and some Swiss. Probably more, but that's all I know about. None of these have a strong pull on me. I live in a part of the country that is very Scandinavian, so those roots pique my curiosity a bit, as does the German-ness manifested by my last name. Then there's the Anglo aspect that permeates America, from the English language to many of our civic and social customs. There's curiosity there, but no great pull. My Irish roots? French? I'm afraid I feel nothing, though I certainly have nothing against Ireland or France. Part of this is probably due to the fact that my most recent ancestors to come to the United States did so in the 1870s. I never met any of them. I barely got a chance to meet a member or two of the first-born generation before they died of old age when I was a young child. Of course, for many, the pull of the identity of the 'old country' is stronger. 
