Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If you look at the history and psychology of most countries of the world, most are far worse. We are about the only country that tries to integrate disparate internal cultures and races. It is a messy, imperfect process. All the same, aries, (I am an Aries and like the screen name), we have a lot to be proud of, and many areas in which we can improve. Speaking as a person of Jewish, largely Eastern European extraction, I am very glad my ancestors braved a steerage trip across the windy, storm-tossed Atlantic to land, variously, at Ellis Island and Halifax, Nova Scotia. If they hadn't, I would likely not be sitting comfortably at my suburban New York keyboard.
Odessa, Ukraine once had the third-largest Jewish population of any city. Kiev and, variously named Limberg, Lvov, Lviv and Lwow were not far behind. You see, the Czars welcomed the Jews but at a segregated distance, the "Pale of Settlement" which was the western edge of the Russian Empire. My mother's side came from entirely within the Pale, from modern Poland and Ukraine. My father's side called themselves Hungarian but came from modern Slovakia. What both had in common was that their communities fell victim to the Eisensatzgruppen and Birkenau, Treblinka and the like. "Genocide" American style would have left most of them alive.
Why don't you try giving your country another chance?
That's part of our history I can be proud of, when we have lived up to the ideals expressed on the Statue of Liberty, and taken in the "huddled masses," but that history was short-lived. Unfortunately our country has devolved into nationalism and xenophobia. A frighteningly large section of our population would welcome an authoritarian government. Civil rights and voting rights are being rolled back in many states. Record numbers of children are being born into poverty. I'm not optimistic about where all this will lead.
With our centuries of history of slavery, genocide of Native Americans, internment of Japanese, bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, our nation-building projects gone wrong, highest rates of incarceration in the world, outrageous gun violence, regular school shootings, culture of narcissism -- just for starters -- it has been difficult for me to be a proud American. I often agree with Freud's observation that "America is a gigantic mistake." So if someone feels ashamed of being Russian or anything else, I would understand.
As others have noted, the rationale for being so scathing, especially in relation to the crimes and depredations of so many other countries, is debatable.
But there's another operative factor. A person born in country X, who still resides in country X, may feel pride or shame or any mixture or gradation of the two. But said person is part of the prevailing society. It's different for an immigrant. An immigrant from China, living in Malaysia, is to some extent a representative of China, even if she's a Malaysian citizen. So if China does something horrendous in the South Pacific, causing Malaysian society grief, than this immigrant has cause to feel a personal and substantial disaffection. It would be different if our heroine were still in China.
Or closer to home... a person is born in Germany, in 1905. Immigrates to the US in 1913. Gets US citizenship in 1920. Along comes WW2. How this person feels about German atrocities and German war crimes, will be very different, if he's living in America, vs. still living in Germany.
With our centuries of history of slavery, genocide of Native Americans, internment of Japanese, bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, our nation-building projects gone wrong, highest rates of incarceration in the world, outrageous gun violence, regular school shootings, culture of narcissism -- just for starters -- it has been difficult for me to be a proud American. I often agree with Freud's observation that "America is a gigantic mistake." So if someone feels ashamed of being Russian or anything else, I would understand.
The problem with this is that is very one-sided.
Make no mistake about it. America is not a perfect country. For that matter there is no perfect country. I want to take your list of things one by one though:
1. Slavery. Please don't think America is unique here. Slavery was practiced in probably most of the countries in the world at one time. It still goes on--under the radar--in many countries of the world. It took a war to do it, but we had the sense to end slavery in our country and we did it within our own political system by enacting the Thirteenth Amendment. I doubt our record is worse than most other countries.
2. Genocide of Native Americans. Our treatment of the Indian people left much to be desired. Still, it is more complicated than most think. There are stories about Indians catching ill and dying in mass of diseases we brought to the New World before we ever had direct contact with them. These diseases resulted in epidemics killing large portions of the Indian population. It was not deliberate. Its simply that combining our two races on the same continent was not good for a race that had not developed immunity to all the diseases white people had encountered while in Europe. Some of the hostility with Indian people resulted because some Indian tribes raped, murdered, and kidnapped white people they came in contact with. Other Indian tribes allied with the British to defeat Americans during the Revolutionary War. I am not happy with how we treated Native Americans, but indigenous people were seldom treated well by European colonialists. You can talk to the Maori in New Zealand and the Aboriginie people in Australia and you'll hear stories that are equally bad. This was not unique to America.
3. Internment of the Japanese. Its best to begin this by describing how wounded America was by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. All countries have a certain amount of prejudice against immigrants. That prejudice only gradually resolves as the group demonstrates its value and makes an accommodation with those who are already here. The attack on Pearl Harbor turned inevitable prejudice and racism into fear and hysteria. There was also a reality that a handful of the Japanese probably did pose some threat to the United States and there was no realistic way to weed them out. So, we interned the Japanese in camps where most of them remained until nearly the end of the war. We did finally realize our mistake though and years later passed a law apologizing to this group and extending them some belated compensation.
4. Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No apologies from me there. We were at war with Japan and the bombings helped bring the war to an end. Plus, the Japanese were warned something like that would happen if they did not give up.
5. Nation building projects gone wrong. Not all of them. We supported South Korea in the Korean War and today it is a prosperous democratic nation. Efforts to help people abroad may be impractical and may not work out. I do not call what we attempted to do in Afghanistan as "wrong".
6. Highest incarceration rates in the world. Its slowly being remedied. Racial tension has much to do with the high crime rate in this country. We are slowly changing policy when it comes to the war on drugs.
7. Outrageous gun violence and school shootings. People have access to guns and firearms in our country because of the Second Amendment. It allows us to defend ourselves against criminals who would break into our homes and harm us. Sometimes, the wrong persons get their hands on guns, but if must be weighed against a constitutional right and the fact that millions of lawful gun owners use those weapons responsibly.
8. Culture of narcissism. I truly do not know what you mean here.
I am not ashamed of this history. In reality, it is better than the history of most countries. Britain was a savage place in the 1500's. The French Revolution was more brutal than the American Revolution. I don't think I need to say anything specific about Germany. What do you think Spain was like during the Inquisition?
Finally are you personally doing anything about the problems you have described? Its easy to complain. Its harder to work for positive change.
I think the best way to look at America is to view it as a work in progress. To paraphrase the poet, Robert Frost, "We have promises to keep, promises to keep, and miles to go before we sleep".
^^^^^^^^^
This is truly one of the best posts that I’ve seen on City-Data. I have only a few very minor quibbles, but I agree with almost everything you’ve said.
I especially agree about the introduction of diseases into the Americas and Australia. The Eurasian and African continent are one landmass. Thus, its mutual residents have some immunity to most of the contagious diseases. When the first explorers came, they left. Not all of livestock left, and that contributed to the spread of diseases. Thus, when the pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock in the early 1600s, the native population was already badly decimated. The ones that remained were disoriented by the recent versus diseases, and were not able to put up a fight. Further, the Native Americans, like most people cover for quite actively among themselves. The colonialists were not able to make much of a imprint in Africa and Asia because of the populations’ immunity.
America truly is a work in progress, and needs all hands on deck.
Make no mistake about it. America is not a perfect country. For that matter there is no perfect country. I want to take your list of things one by one though:
1. Slavery. Please don't think America is unique here. Slavery was practiced in probably most of the countries in the world at one time. It still goes on--under the radar--in many countries of the world. It took a war to do it, but we had the sense to end slavery in our country and we did it within our own political system by enacting the Thirteenth Amendment. I doubt our record is worse than most other countries.
2. Genocide of Native Americans. Our treatment of the Indian people left much to be desired. Still, it is more complicated than most think. There are stories about Indians catching ill and dying in mass of diseases we brought to the New World before we ever had direct contact with them. These diseases resulted in epidemics killing large portions of the Indian population. It was not deliberate. Its simply that combining our two races on the same continent was not good for a race that had not developed immunity to all the diseases white people had encountered while in Europe. Some of the hostility with Indian people resulted because some Indian tribes raped, murdered, and kidnapped white people they came in contact with. Other Indian tribes allied with the British to defeat Americans during the Revolutionary War. I am not happy with how we treated Native Americans, but indigenous people were seldom treated well by European colonialists. You can talk to the Maori in New Zealand and the Aboriginie people in Australia and you'll hear stories that are equally bad. This was not unique to America.
3. Internment of the Japanese. Its best to begin this by describing how wounded America was by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. All countries have a certain amount of prejudice against immigrants. That prejudice only gradually resolves as the group demonstrates its value and makes an accommodation with those who are already here. The attack on Pearl Harbor turned inevitable prejudice and racism into fear and hysteria. There was also a reality that a handful of the Japanese probably did pose some threat to the United States and there was no realistic way to weed them out. So, we interned the Japanese in camps where most of them remained until nearly the end of the war. We did finally realize our mistake though and years later passed a law apologizing to this group and extending them some belated compensation.
4. Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No apologies from me there. We were at war with Japan and the bombings helped bring the war to an end. Plus, the Japanese were warned something like that would happen if they did not give up.
5. Nation building projects gone wrong. Not all of them. We supported South Korea in the Korean War and today it is a prosperous democratic nation. Efforts to help people abroad may be impractical and may not work out. I do not call what we attempted to do in Afghanistan as "wrong".
6. Highest incarceration rates in the world. Its slowly being remedied. Racial tension has much to do with the high crime rate in this country. We are slowly changing policy when it comes to the war on drugs.
7. Outrageous gun violence and school shootings. People have access to guns and firearms in our country because of the Second Amendment. It allows us to defend ourselves against criminals who would break into our homes and harm us. Sometimes, the wrong persons get their hands on guns, but if must be weighed against a constitutional right and the fact that millions of lawful gun owners use those weapons responsibly.
8. Culture of narcissism. I truly do not know what you mean here.
I am not ashamed of this history. In reality, it is better than the history of most countries. Britain was a savage place in the 1500's. The French Revolution was more brutal than the American Revolution. I don't think I need to say anything specific about Germany. What do you think Spain was like during the Inquisition?
Finally are you personally doing anything about the problems you have described? Its easy to complain. Its harder to work for positive change.
I think the best way to look at America is to view it as a work in progress. To paraphrase the poet, Robert Frost, "We have promises to keep, promises to keep, and miles to go before we sleep".
Please pick up a history book. Slavery did not end it just changed...google share cropping and convict leasing. Furthermore you "forgot" about the additional 100 years after that called Jim Crow, where brutal activities like Lynchings & gang rapes of Black females became the norm. We didn't just simply enact a slavery ending law a whole civil war had to be fought for it to happen. Other then BRAZIL the US practice of Slavery lasted longer then most and was def more brutal as slaves before US style slavery actually had RIGHTS and could become citizens. So no US slavery was worse then anything before.
OP, I have a different opinion. My roots are Ukrainian and my heart lives there. My contact with cousins in Ukraine is a blessing and I am so happy to know where my grandfather's people are. They had been lost for decades until contact was regained through family tree building.
Kinda like many Germans living here who Anglicized their names during WWI (my great-grandmother changed her name from Wilhelmina to Minnie), or the Japanese who pretended to be Chinese or Korean during WWII, or the Arabs and/or other Muslims who tried to keep a low profile after 9/11.... some things never change. Only this time we're not even technically at war with Russia.
Please pick up a history book. Slavery did not end it just changed...google share cropping and convict leasing. Furthermore you "forgot" about the additional 100 years after that called Jim Crow, where brutal activities like Lynchings & gang rapes of Black females became the norm. We didn't just simply enact a slavery ending law a whole civil war had to be fought for it to happen. Other then BRAZIL the US practice of Slavery lasted longer then most and was def more brutal as slaves before US style slavery actually had RIGHTS and could become citizens. So no US slavery was worse then anything before.
The topic of this thread, which I started, is people's feelings about the countries they or their ancestors left in the rear-view mirror. It is easy, living in a relatively free country, to sit behind a keyboard and lob word-bombs at the country. No one is coming for you, and that is one of the many great things about this country.
If you were a Russian living in Russia, or a Chinese person living in China, would you be sitting on a computer hammering Putin or Xi? I highly doubt it. If you did so you could expect an aggressive police response. And you wouldn't have to threaten the officer with the risk of your having firepower or get highly aggressive with the officer to suffer and suffer mightily.
The fact is, whatever the injustices that may have existed or may still exist in the U.S., it's a pretty warm and safe place, even for those that verbally hate it. Consider yourself among the luckiest people in the world, if you have the privilege of living here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitty61
OP, I have a different opinion. My roots are Ukrainian and my heart lives there. My contact with cousins in Ukraine is a blessing and I am so happy to know where my grandfather's people are. They had been lost for decades until contact was regained through family tree building.
You and I have no quarrel. I have a problem with those that attack someone for their ancestry. I believe everyone should be evaluated not by their family tree or their color, but by the contents of their character. I'm quite sure that most Ukrainians living in the U.S. or Canada have very constructive people in their family tree.
In my case, the people who remained behind were quite likely massacred. I, seriously, extend my prayers for the survivors in your family and others living in that part of the world and hope they gain the peace in their lives that is their right as human beings.
Please pick up a history book. Slavery did not end it just changed...google share cropping and convict leasing. Furthermore you "forgot" about the additional 100 years after that called Jim Crow, where brutal activities like Lynchings & gang rapes of Black females became the norm. We didn't just simply enact a slavery ending law a whole civil war had to be fought for it to happen. Other then BRAZIL the US practice of Slavery lasted longer then most and was def more brutal as slaves before US style slavery actually had RIGHTS and could become citizens. So no US slavery was worse then anything before.
African American people suffered much discrimination in this country long after slavery ended. That is true. The part that you leave out is that minority people generally suffer discrimination around the world. You might go to Japan sometime if you want to see what I mean. Many Japanese will get out of a swimming pool if they see a white person get into the pool while they are using it. There used to be quite a stigma in Japan that prohibited Japanese people from marrying Koreans. The United Kingdom has quite a record of discrimination against black people. I have heard serious reports of discrimination from black soldiers who were stationed in Germany and some of the continental European countries.
I do not justify the abuses suffered by black people in the USA. I simply point out that major discrimination is a problem in most of the countries in this world. Transitioning from slavery to equality was bound to be a slow process no matter what laws were passed. It was a large leap to make. I do take pride in the passage of the civil rights legislation during the 1960's in this country and the willingness of our courts to back constitutional rights for all. I do contend that what happened in the USA was on par and not worse than in most other countries. The difference between America and other countries when it comes to something like lynching is that because of a free, functional press those things got reported. I suspect in other countries it was just swept under the rug.
I do not view America with "rose colored glasses". I had a political science professor when I went to the university that put it this way: "The difference between America and other countries is that we have kept more promises than we have broken".
The most patriotic service that all of us can perform for our country at this point is to see that we keep as many of those promises as possible.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
