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If schools were privatized I wouldn't be able to afford to send my daughters to school. I know I'm not alone. There would be a huge surplus of homeless, uneducated people.
I hate when people say that, since they don't have kids, they shouldn't have to pay for schools. Do you realize that it's those kids that go on to become YOUR doctor, YOUR nurse, YOUR dentist, YOUR pilot, etc?
And how has that affected the school district..it's funding, the quality of teachers they are able to hire based on what they have available in their funding. How much did it raise the taxes of those that are paying for schools with children in schools?
How are schools funded in your "rural" area where people "opted out" and again.. how did that affect quality of the schools.. etc
The first source you cited began its discussion of "school violence" with reference to the 1998 incident in Jonesboro, Arkansas, in which a 13-year old and an 11-year old killed four classmates and a teacher. If you had meant to discuss only beatings and rapes, perhaps you could have taken care to select your sources more carefully.
As to such non-murderous incidents, I'm afraid that versions of stories that you have heard from family and friends are not going to carry very much weight. They are certainly not going to be accepted as confirmation of a relative levels of violence in public schools that can only be escaped by turning to a national program of private school vouchers.
Mr. Greenspan was Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. He did not reach that position by virtue of his expertise in education matters. His opinion on vouchers is but another one among many. The fact remains that private schools do no better job of preparing students than public schools do. The fact remains that trial voucher and school privitization programs have all fallen well short of delivering against the promises that were made for them. Claims that public school students and teachers are being made to pay a "heavy price" are undefined and unsupported. If there is a case for school vouchers, it has not been made here, and it will not be made anywhere when based on little more than emotion and supposition.
dear friend
you discounted my posts because you felt the testimony of teachers and parents in the community were of no consequence
you discounted the stat threads because they included homocide stats in addition to the subject of other public school crime
you discounted Dr greenspan bek he does not work in k12.
why do you ignore significant sources that do not concur with your opinons. public schools are dangerous. do people really just hear and see what they want to.
Those in the surrounding areas that do have kids drive them to schools - 30/35 miles away
Do they then pay school taxes for the schools they drive their kids too since they are outside of the community but use the neighboring communities public schools?
And if they can afford private, then I'm sure they go that route?
So naturally, most parents, especially those whose budgets are already stretched, want to retain the public education system: it allows them to continue looting from the wealthy and from people who have no children. These parents are consuming more than they're producing; so, they want people whose net production is positive to make up the difference. You may think my phraseology is cold and heartless, but it's nonetheless an accurate summarization of what I've read so far in this thread. Is it right or wrong not to want to publicly fund someone else’s child’s education? I believe that in a free society it should be a personal decision, regardless of how the majority feel.
Excellent summation! Those points echo my sentiments perfectly. Unfortunately, many parents seem to think it's a Constiutional right to have children ... which it isn't. Even so, it comes with responsibilities. Those who make the CHOICE to have kids shouldn't be expecting others to subsidize their reproductive choice. Somehow, they think the childless ones who are fed up with seeing their taxes pay for others' children are "selfish". Actually, it is the parents with kids in the public system who are the selfish ones because they are taking advantage of FREE education while paying nothing into the system (except taxes, which everybody else pays as well).
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
If education was fully privatized I believe grandparents would begin to take a more active role in the funding and delivery of their grandchildren’s education. Many grandparents already contribute to 529 plans and I know one couple who paid for med school for their granddaughter. I believe we'd see more of the same, but to a greater, or more prevalent, degree.
While it's true that many senior citizen grandparents are financially strapped & living on fixed incomes, there are also quite a few who are very well off. Regardless of financial status, most grandparents are very generous, and want to help out as much as possible. I came from a family that wasn't wealthy by any means. My grandparents came of age during the depression and were money misers ... but they still chipped in monetarily whenever they could. Not everything has to be government run, and there is no reason for it to be when there are many generous families and charities that do the job more effectively.
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
I also believe that many people would donate money [as they saw fit] to help underprivileged children in the community.
Another good point, which I've tried several times to point out to Tristans Mommy. Many individuals, groups, and corporations already contribute to their communities in lots of ways. A good share of Americans care enough about children to where they won't allow a huge amount of them to go without an education. I still stress that this should be primarily the responsibility of the parents/family ... however, if they become financially strapped to where private school can't be afforded, there are many others who would be willing to help.
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
Fewer movie channels and cell phones in the household, SUVs in the garage and granite countertops in the kitchen, collectively, would also go a long way toward helping some of the families pay for school. Together, all the above contributions would help to offset the burden on some of the young parents. The decision, then, of whether or not to help ensure that all children receive an education would be given back to the individual and to the community. The vote of the majority would no longer decide what’s best for everyone. By taking responsibility for your lifestyle and for the welfare of your family, friends, and relatives you'd become less dependent on the taxation of the people, like the OP, who don't want to participate. This, I believe, would also do a lot to strengthen our society in other ways. It would help teach people to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, knowing that the government or the community may choose not to help them.
Amen! Again, these are all valid points that have been made earlier. I've seen "struggling" middle class families who supposedly can't afford private school tuition ... but they are the same ones with new cars/SUVs in the garage, big screen TVs, DVD players, Ipods, computers with high speed internet, etc., etc. Oh, and don't forget the car given to the kid when he/she turns 16! Unfortunately, this is the selfish, gluttonous mentality of many people today: "let me have my toys, but let the taxpayers subsidize the education & upbringing of my little darlings!"
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
Still, I agree that some children--whether through their parents' poor lifestyle decisions, irresponsibility, misfortune, or neglect--wouldn't receive an education.
This may be true. However, there are also some without health care coverage. It isn't many, but it's enough for the bleeding heart liberals to make it into a huge national crisis. The fact of the matter is that some will go without. That will happen no matter what ... even if we socialize & subsidize everything. It shouldn't be everybody else's obligation to keep shelling out tax money to supposedly help those who don't have enough interest or motivation to help themselves.
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheShell
Considering the fact that many recent high school graduates can't execute basic arithmetic operations or name the first president, I'd say this is already the case.
This is yet another point which adds to the many other valid points of why education should be privatized. I've been accused of not providing any links or statistics that state how private schools are better. However, I provided one which clearly indicated how children in the private schools are ahead of their public school counterparts in terms of academics ... and they are more likely to receive college degrees. The websites provided from the other side of the debate make some vaild points ... but "statistics" can easily be skewed. That's one of the reasons I advocate private education based on my OWN experience with both the private & public sectors. I've been there, and I've known many others with the same experiences.
I've been accused of being uncaring, anti child, etc. ... even though I have stated on here that I have been involved in different charities, some of which help needy children. When I asked Tristans Mommy if she ever gets involved in charitable work, I finally got an answer:
Quote:
while I don't have time to donate I do donate to charities.. not very much, mind you , as I don't have a lot of descretionary income to give up
Some people are simply afraid to try a new, improved method. Education is very important, which is why I want to see the system completely overhauled and turned over to the private sector. Even those on the pro side of public schools admit that the system is flawed ... but they'd rather keep plodding along with the same old ineffective way of having the government run the schools, and the public continue to subsidize them through extensive taxation. Privatization would work well for just about everybody (childless & not). Don't knock it until you've tried it!
a) first, you assume that every middle class family has the SUV, the HDTV, granite countertops..etc etc etc. It seems that middle America has a "stereotype" and as we all know that stereotypes are not always correct.
I've already illustrated in my post what the difference would have to ve between my school taxes vs. what private school would cost me. Being that my school taxes are about $4550/ year and instead that would get put toward privatized education at the elementary and secondary level with tuition a year around $15K that would make me have to come up with an extra $10+ a year to educate just one of child. If I had two children it would be an extra 25K+ a year and so on and so forth. Giving up the cable bill every month is not even going to come CLOSE to the amount of money I or any family would need to educate their children.
B) YOu spoke of college education which is largely privately funded by families at the college level or throgh student loans, scholarships etc. Government doesnt collect taxes to pay tuition, although if I'm not mistaken some taxes do go to state colleges? But not to the same degree that elementary and secondary schools are funded. So the entire Italy analogy doesn't quite fit into the discussion of publicly funded elementary and secondary schools. I will agree that it's a waste of ITALY's money if they educate people for jobs that don't exist.. Anyone can have a job in the U.S.. but if one wants to have a job that earns a decent paygrade then they need to get an edcuation or a skill so that they can compete for and complete jobs. Italy needs to work on creating jobs within their country..but then they will need educated people to fill said jobs. Fortunately that is NOT a problem in the U.S... that is what makes us a great nation.
Do you honestly feel that educating America's youth.. the next generation of American's , is really a waste of money? Because Thomas Jefferson didn't think so.
c) Your entire paragraph about grandparents subsidizing education made me laugh. You must really be out of touch if you think that grandparents can fund anything, let a lone their grandkids education? Are you not aware that "grandparents" are on a fixed income and living off their 401K's!!! If they even HAVE a 401k! With inflation and the cost of living rising so quickly these days they are lucky they can afford to feed themselves let alone contribute to an education tuition. ARe you aware of how grandparents "contribute" to a529 Savings plan? You contribute when you purchase items in a grocery store,drug store or from a list of vendors tied in with a 529. My mom signed up and she "contributes" every time she buys a product that gives some back and puts it into the 529 plan. Also,grandparents give gifts and sometimes those gifts are money for college here and there throughout the years.. which by the time they go to college may add up to 1 years tuition if you're lucky.
The couple that paid for med school for their granddaughter deserve a round of applause.. and it was great that they actually had it to give. I'm sure there are other well off grandparents that contribute to their childrens college educations all the time, if they have it. And let me ask you this.. if those same grandparents had to contribute to her elementary and secondary education do you think they would have had anything left to contribute to her college tuition?
You have nice ideas but they are not based in reality for many.. in fantastical to think that grandparents can contribute to paying for grandchildren's education..
D) You assume that people coming out of school do not know simple arithmetic.. etc etc. I knew alot more when I first got out of school than I remember now, that's for sure... but where are your numbers to prove that our kids are coming out of school .. well stupid? Do we have some children that come out of the education system that lack the sufficient skills they should have acquired by now.. of course you do. There are always going to be a sampling of something in any population especially one of size. And guess what.. those kids go on to fill jobs that are , well at a lower paygrade. That doesn't mean that our schools are failing, just that those individuals failed themselves.
Our country , which is a Republic I know, was founded onthe principle of Democracy... which is majority rules. The majority of the population is in agreement that publicly funded education has served us very well and will continue to serve us in the future. As with anything, it's not without it's problems.. so find them and fix them. As for parents having the choice.. no one is holding a gun to any parents head and forcing them to send their kids to public school. They can send them to private school (which I've illustrated is no better than a public school ) or homeschool them should they so choose.. OR they can use a combination of any of those available (I for one will use public schools and will also expand on his education at home in many areas I feel the school may not teach.. etc).
Public school gives all kids the ability to learn and grow and reach their maiximum potential It gives hte kids from the project the ability to pick himself up out of the projects and break that cycle of poverty.. do they all utilize it.. no.. but it's there. It's a place where each generation is guaranteed an education to better improve their standing or keep the status quo if they are happy. It is part of the American dream the rest of the world admires.
(just a note.. we're talking about elementary and secondary education here.. college is a different ball game entirely and is not funded through property taxes).
(Just to clarify, you can make direct contributions to 529 plans. Vanguard offer plans that allow you to make recurring deposits.)
One of the other posters said, "You are an advocate of the user-pay system, in which the entire burden for the cost of an educated and literate nation is borne by the 25-40 demographic, which is the economic sector least able to afford it. They have not yet been promoted to higher paying positions, and they are faced with all the other expenses of early home-making." By mentioning grandparents, I was simply stating that offering the other demographics a choice isn't the same as saying they won't participate. If anything, I believe your own statements regarding grandparents serve to support my argument by implying that younger parents have more disposable income than their own parents. I don't necessarily agree, but that's what it seems to suggest.
No, I don't believe education is always a waste of money. I do, however, believe that the quality of public education in many parts of the country is weak. And I mean it's weak in its own right, without making a comparison to parochial schools. I'm speaking from experience and common sense, not statistics. I think your comparisons and data among public and private schools are largely invalid because there's relatively little competition among private schools, and many of them are parochial. By dissolving publicly funded education, you'd create a much broader market for private education. Some schools or methods of delivery would be better than others. Some would offer different content. (Perhaps some would teach Keynesian economics in addition to Austrian economics, creationism in addition to science, etc.) Some would fail. If someone offered a better product, perhaps at a lower price, that's where people would send their children. However, the point I wanted to make extends beyond the quality of the education.
Regarding some of your other points, I assumed none of those things. I used conditional statements in my post along with words and phrases like: some, efficiency, greater, collectively, offset and less dependent. Nowhere did I use absolutes or summarily dismiss other’s posts. This was intentional. I mentioned those things because I wanted to present ideas (those were just off the top of my head; I'm sure there are better ideas). I believe that with enough creativity, resourcefulness and ingenuity many people would be able to get by just fine with privatized education--maybe even some of the people who say, "No way could we afford it." (As an aside, not everyone would drop out like the OP. If what others have said is true--that most people consider the benefit of an educated citizenry as irrefutable--I'd expect to see most people continue to support some of those in need through charity.) Nonetheless, I went on to imply that, despite changes in lifestyle or support from their parents and community, some of the people certainly would face hardship. There are many people in the U.S. who consume far more than they produce; so without substantial support from the community, they'd have to come to full terms with this. And that is the central idea of my post: not whether or not a privatized education system would be easier on people, but whether we should continue to support a system that betrays human behavior and, therefore, innovation. I suppose the idea was implied by my post more so than overtly stated. We could discuss for weeks the relationship among efficiency, reward, competition, innovation, and survival of the fittest, but how about I simply agree to reiterate the final phrase of my first post? Collectivism versus Individualism.
Excellent summation! Those points echo my sentiments perfectly. Unfortunately, many parents seem to think it's a Constiutional right to have children ... which it isn't. Even so, it comes with responsibilities. Those who make the CHOICE to have kids shouldn't be expecting others to subsidize their reproductive choice. Somehow, they think the childless ones who are fed up with seeing their taxes pay for others' children are "selfish". Actually, it is the parents with kids in the public system who are the selfish ones because they are taking advantage of FREE education while paying nothing into the system (except taxes, which everybody else pays as well).
First of.. lets not name call with the word "selfish"..shall we.
Again.. you conveniently ignore that having an educated population is what lifted this country to it's status today and is what continues to keep this country on top. I suggest you go and read a little history on how the public school system came about and why.
Majority of Americans are publicly schooled, more so than the private. Regardless of your party affiliation and who you are voting for.. BOTH party canditates were products of public schooling .. as wsa your dr. , your lawyer, your accountant.. the list goes on and on and on. Now.. imagine an America with no public schooling for these people you need inyour life everyday... now imagine them gone.
so.. without education what haev you gained. You may have been able to keep that extra $1100 in your pocket..but then there are not enough Dr's , lawyers etc.
While it's true that many senior citizen grandparents are financially strapped & living on fixed incomes, there are also quite a few who are very well off. Regardless of financial status, most grandparents are very generous, and want to help out as much as possible. I came from a family that wasn't wealthy by any means. My grandparents came of age during the depression and were money misers ... but they still chipped in monetarily whenever they could. Not everything has to be government run, and there is no reason for it to be when there are many generous families and charities that do the job more effectively.
LOL.. Chipping in monetarily whenever they can does not a school education fund sir.. your arguments are not based on any facts. Grandparents chip in $10 or $20 bucks here and there.
And here's some other news. Most well to do grandparents also have well to do Children who have well do to grandchildren. Just as being poor is cyclical so is being wealthy.. And I don't doubt that those grandparents use the means they have to educate their grandkids.. and those grandkids probably will go to the most expensive colleges and maybe will go to a prep school , private school or charter school becasue they can afford it.
Simply being a "grandparent" with good intentions does not make you financialy able to help finance your grandkids education. And you are way out of touch with the population if you think that most grandparents are well off enough to "chip in" and help out with school tuition.
Another good point, which I've tried several times to point out to Tristans Mommy. Many individuals, groups, and corporations already contribute to their communities in lots of ways. A good share of Americans care enough about children to where they won't allow a huge amount of them to go without an education. I still stress that this should be primarily the responsibility of the parents/family ... however, if they become financially strapped to where private school can't be afforded, there are many others who would be willing to help.
I guess you didn't watch the news last night then. Atleast here on the news they did a news report where one charity that raises 5 million a year (and is a national charity) that corporations and individuals contribute too can't raise enough money this year.. because of the bad economy. And 5 million is not enough to run the entire school system in the United States.. That would run maybe 1 1/2 - 2 school districts in my county of Nassau in NY for one year with tightened belts.. what about the other 52 School districts in my county..
I guess you don't understand the scope of what education by charity would require to run it. And again.. contributions are sporadic..but you conveniently ignore that in my post.
Think of it this way.. your community to run it's school district and pay all the teachers salaries etc.. NEEDS your $1100 a year along with the taxes that every homeowner pays. Let's say you run your SD on charity. Now, obviously YOU wouldn't giev $1100 because you feel that's too much.. after all you complained about that "large" amount on your tax bill. So how much would you give? Let's say you gave $500 and then others gave.. maybe some didn't. Guess what.. not enough funds to keep students on staff, to supply students with books.
And in those years where charity is tight because of a tight economy.. how to you propose you deal with a shortage of funds.. ooh.. so sorry kids.. no school this year for you..we didn't raise enough money !!
Come on.. be serious here for a second and think about the scope of what you are proposing. It's impossible. Do yourself a favor and actually LOOK at what a school budget is comprised of..
Again.. i wouldn't want to put the education of our future Dr's , politicians, lawyers.. even hairdressers in the hands of peoples "charity" .. the public is fickle.
Amen! Again, these are all valid points that have been made earlier. I've seen "struggling" middle class families who supposedly can't afford private school tuition ... but they are the same ones with new cars/SUVs in the garage, big screen TVs, DVD players, Ipods, computers with high speed internet, etc., etc. Oh, and don't forget the car given to the kid when he/she turns 16! Unfortunately, this is the selfish, gluttonous mentality of many people today: "let me have my toys, but let the taxpayers subsidize the education & upbringing of my little darlings!"
Again you repeatedly ignore my posts.. my cable bill, my insurance payment on the car do not even come CLOSE to tackling the over $10000 I would have to come up with year after year to educate one child.. what if you had 2 or 4 children . That would be $40K a year for 3 kids.. some people only make that in one year!!
This may be true. However, there are also some without health care coverage. It isn't many, but it's enough for the bleeding heart liberals to make it into a huge national crisis. The fact of the matter is that some will go without. That will happen no matter what ... even if we socialize & subsidize everything. It shouldn't be everybody else's obligation to keep shelling out tax money to supposedly help those who don't have enough interest or motivation to help themselves.
Wow.. do you even understand what the health insurance crisis is in this country. Do you not read the newspapers. Without getting too much into it here, because this is about education and NOT health insurance, the problem is that health insurance coverage has gotten so expensive that alot of employers are discountinuing coverage or cutting that benefit down as a result. This leaves people with no insurance or not enough insurance to cover their medical costs should someone get sick. Did you not read my post where I told you I pay $856/month for my health insurance for me and my son? That comes to 10,272/year. If you make middle income of $50K a year that is 20% of their salary BEFORE taxes.
Yes, the numbers are not quite as large yet.. but have you not seen the rate of increase over the last decade of those that are uninsured are increasing.
BTW.. even the Republicans or the right wing understand that there is a healthcoverage issue and there is a problem with healthcare in this country. They don't argue that.. They only differ on what the solution to the problem should be.
I shudder to think what will happen to you if you loose your job and therefore your insurance. And given the climate of this economy.. that is a real possibility. You will be shocked at what could happen to you without insurance.. I pray it wouldn't happen to you because if $1100 makes that much of a difference in your existence that you are so upset over it , it won't compare to the bills you'll recieve when you get sick or god forbid need surgery or treatment. Will you then feel that "oh well I'll go without" if going without leaves you to die?
This is yet another point which adds to the many other valid points of why education should be privatized. I've been accused of not providing any links or statistics that state how private schools are better. However, I provided one which clearly indicated how children in the private schools are ahead of their public school counterparts in terms of academics ... and they are more likely to receive college degrees. The websites provided from the other side of the debate make some vaild points ... but "statistics" can easily be skewed. That's one of the reasons I advocate private education based on my OWN experience with both the private & public sectors. I've been there, and I've known many others with the same experiences.
That's why I pointed to not 1 study but two.. one of which was very recent. You pointed to a website which was an advertising fluff piece on private schools as a means to further private schools, rather than from an orginization seeking answers that are not designed to either benefit one party or another.
And your personal experience is pretty much one persons "opinion" and not fact. There are all sorts of "experiences". Maybe one of your classmates did not find their experience as good sa yours.
In addition, there have been many posters from regions where privitization and voucher programs have been implemented and studied to see how well they work and has been a dissappointment.
I've been accused of being uncaring, anti child, etc. ... even though I have stated on here that I have been involved in different charities, some of which help needy children. When I asked Tristans Mommy if she ever gets involved in charitable work, I finally got an answer:
touting the "I give to charity flag" as if that makes it any better that they would rather see mass population of children go uneducated because they don't want to pay an $1100 education bill..It boggles my mind why you wuold be so willing to start and give to charities and then have a problem with $1100 tax bill.. So.. maybe you should start looking at your tax bill as a charitable contribution you make every year to the betterment of your community and the nation as a whole.
I may not give as much to charity or my time.. but then I'm raising children and I'm working like a crazy person to do it WITHOUT tapping into public charity.. I'm working so that I can afford a college education for my child without putting my hand out. And someday when I am financially better and on my feet I will probably have more time and more money to donate to charities.
but, whenever I"m at a grocery store and there is a charity standing there asking for money I dig in and I contribute. I also gave during Katrina (boy was I hoping I got Brad Pitt on the phone during that call a thon thing) But I don't wear what charities or what I do to contribute to society on my sleeve because i have nothing to prove or disprove.
Some people are simply afraid to try a new, improved method. Education is very important, which is why I want to see the system completely overhauled and turned over to the private sector. Even those on the pro side of public schools admit that the system is flawed ... but they'd rather keep plodding along with the same old ineffective way of having the government run the schools, and the public continue to subsidize them through extensive taxation. Privatization would work well for just about everybody (childless & not). Don't knock it until you've tried it!
Here's a reality check for you.
Take the school district I live in ..
Spending & Revenue per Student
Total Revenue$16,679Total Expenditures$16,640
Our combine taxes bring in $16,679 per student enrolled in school a year. It takes $16,640/year to educate 1 child in that school district.
Now.. keeping that in mind... a family of middle income making $60K a year (which is the high end of the national middle) that is 27% of their income. If you had two kids it would take nearly 50% of their income.. the average size of a family in the U.S I believe is about 2.5 kids. Housing is supposed to take up approx 35% of a household budget. So if you have two kids you are spending 85% of your income, under your "privitization" idea to educatate your kids and put a roof over their heads. That leaves only 15% of your income for food, heating your home, electric bills, clothes, gas to get to work.. etc.
Impossible!
Ohter areas may spend $12K a year to educate 1 child, but then they live in an area where salaries do not reach the levels that a NY salary would.
Do you see it yet. Do you see how it would be impossible for a middle income family to actually afford an education for their children..
If you don't see it.. then I don't know what else to say. Perhaps maybe you can start a community or your own town where you live where there are little or no children so that school taxes are not needed in that community.
and GreatDay has pointed out that there are some communities like that. He lives in one.. it's obviously very rural and he enjoys it and it works for him.. maybe it would for you too!
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) But I don't wear what charities or what I do to contribute to society on my sleeve because i have nothing to prove or disprove. 
