Naziism and the "right" (death, dictator, compared, party)

[zman0]

Originally Posted by Heracles

It has been debated and your argument has been found to be without merit.

There hasn't been any debate, at least from you.

Originally Posted by Heracles

Nazism was/is based on Christian identity like the KKK, systematically demonizing all who do not fit the mold (like the modern day right).

Originally Posted by Heracles

It is not right or fitting to call anyone a Nazi, except for a Nazi, I guess. But Bush and the modern right he represents echo original Nazi tactics and ideologies in many ways.

Originally Posted by Heracles

Once you are determined to be of sufficient Germanic purity (read: not Jewish), you are "in the club" and share in the spoils of war, conquest and genocide...When viewed this way, the Nazi party looks surprisingly like the modern right.

Given your extreme hatred of the right (not to mention BDS), I don't think you're a very impartial judge of the issue.

I wanted this to remain a civil discussion, but it seems that any mention of the word "Nazi" evokes an emotional response and draws in people who have no other goal in life than to demonize those who disagree with them politically.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by zman0

I question the analogy between Nazism and the term "right wing," as it is commonly used. Looking at some of the political positions of the Nazi party, they are more in line with modern liberalism than modern conservativism.
Examples:
The Rise of Hitler - The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party
Given these platforms are generally opposed by modern Conservatives (considered the "right wingers"), isn't it inappropriate to equate "Nazis" with "far right"?
In fact, many of the policies outlined in the 25 points should best be described as "nationalist socialism," which would be left of center, more towards Communism than conservative thought.

As is typical of the "Right" (the "Wrong"..?), apparently you've chosen to only include those points that appear to support your argument, and then they're mostly the ones about government sponsored health care, pensions, maternity care, education, etc., which most major western countries (except for the U.S.) currently enjoy anyway. So what are you saying, that Sweden, France, Great Britain, Mexico, etc, are Nazi-run countries? And as to "profit-sharing in large industries", we all have that... it's called "taxes".

If you weren't so obsessed with that current right-wing bugaboo, "Socialism", you'd list the rest of the 25 points, the ones that clearly speak to all that's near-and-dear to the "Far Right":

Anti-immigration, Points 5., 6., 7., & 8. - "Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens." "If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich." "Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented."
Nationalism, "Uber-Patriotism" & "Support the Troops", Points 22., 23. - "We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press." (a.k.a. the "Liberal" media). "We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army." And let's not forget slavish, unquestioned submission to "Der Fuhrer" (a.k.a. "the Decider").
Christian Primacy & "Culture Wars", Points 23., 24. - "The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without. "Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved." (Hear that, PBS?)

There are others, but those will do. And BTW, are you saying that Conservatives agree with none of the Nazi Points, such as:

"2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations" or "6. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness." or "9. All citizens must possess equal rights." or "10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically." or "16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class."?

[Tricky D]

What is the difference between Nazism and the right and Israel's distinction between white Jews (Ashkenazi Jews) and coloured Jews (the Sephardim and Mizrahim)?
Why are the coloured Jews often discriminated against (by the Israeli government)?
Could it be because they look exactly like Arabs?
I guess you could say that the Sephardim and Mizrahim know exactly how it feels to be a black man living in America (read: to be pulled over by the police on the account of racial profiling/skin colour).

* Ashkenazi Jews in Israel
Today, Ashkenazi Jews constitute the largest group among Jews, but comprise a slight minority of Israeli Jews (see Demographics of Israel). However, they have played a prominent role in the economy, media, and politics of Israel since its founding. Tensions have sometimes arisen between the traditional Jews of the Middle East (the Sephardim and Mizrahim) and the mostly European Ashkenazim who founded Israel. Later migrants hailing from the various non-Ashkenazi groups sometimes claim that they are discriminated against in terms of education, jobs/income, housing and in other areas.
Source: Ashkenazi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And doesn’t the right favour racial profiling, just like the Nazis?
There is a reason why the Jewish Germans had to have their passport with them at all times, because it had the bold letters Jew stamped on it.
Without the aid of a Star of David (and the passport) a Nazi cannot tell the difference between a 'native' German and a Jewish German.

[leangk]

first of all anyone who compares bush to the nazis is an idiot.

as we established, the nazis economic policy was extremely left wing. the governemnt was socialist. america is not. nationalism has always been part of the US, nothing new. a persecution of a scapegoat in america?? who? the arabs? who bush on television multiple times said are our friends?? did hitler say the same about the jews?

strong support for military. is not a nazi-only trait. even extrmely socialist left wing countries like france love their military. its not a "right wing support it, left wing dont". in fact both sides support the army, maybe the left even more.

so there you go.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by leangk

first of all anyone who compares bush to the nazis is an idiot.

No more an idiot than comparing liberals to Nazis...

[cpg35223]

Well, I think the Nazi/Conservative conflation is indeed a misnomer. Really, when the left wing associates Conservatives with Nazis, what they're really trying to do is associate Conservatives with Puritans or bluenoses such as Oliver Cromwell. But they're typically not literate enough in history to get to that point.

[ParkTwain]

So you disagree with the conventional definition (check your dictionary) that fascism is a "totalitarianism of the Right"? Nazism was a flavor of fascism.

[Asheville Native]

Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.

[Tricky D]

first of all anyone who compares bush to the nazis is an idiot.

And what if Bush is an idiot?
Comparing 1 idiot with another doesn't make me an idiot.
But I agree that Bush is more of a yes-man than a real decider (read: leader and visionary) like Hitler (although Hitler was also an idiot, but an idiot with a vision and more charisma than Dubya).

as we established, the nazis economic policy was extremely left wing.

I ( as in not we) have decided that the Nazi economy (and its propaganda) is no different than the American Marshall plan.

The Marshall Plan launched a massive propaganda campaign in an attempt to reformat the ideals of Europeans. The Plan was ostensibly an attempt to combat Communism as well as to re-vamp the economy of Europe. However, the films presented American ideals as something to aspire to: not only in business, but also in living everyday life. By stressing
consumption over conservation and massive production over craftsmanship, the films told Europeans what America thought was best for them, and what would be beneficial for their future. Marshall Planners effectively sought to make Europe into a new, more American, place to live.

“We who have worked in the Marshall Plan have found a real and growing response to our information efforts. There is no telling what a sustained, full scale crusade to propagandize the free world doctrine will do. The evidence is that it will give new hope and determination to those who want freedom and bring new defeats to the enemies of freedom. The time to start this new and intensified program of free world propaganda is now, if the free world is to be made invincible in its credo as in its cause.”

Paul Hoffman, head of the European Cooperation Administration (ECA), believed in the Marshall Plan. Not only did he appreciate the need for implementing the financial aid of the Marshall Plan, he also saw clearly the need to promote the “cause” of the United States. His “free world doctrine” did not stop at economic change. It also contained religious, political, and social aspects and preached the coming of a new socially-conscious capitalism, “a system based on widespread ownership, diffusion of initiative, decision and enterprise and an ever-widening distribution of its benefits.”
Hoffman’s concerns rested not only on the welfare of Europe’s people after the devastation of World War II, but also on the future decisions and beliefs of his Atlantic neighbors. Americans worried about the growing escalation of the Cold War and the role they hoped that Europe would play in this struggle. For Europe to be the defensive ally American wanted, its economy needed to be strengthened as well.
Source: http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...FilmThesis.pdf

I can see why Mussolini admired the Marshall plan.

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
Benito Mussolini

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I can see why Mussolini admired the Marshall plan.

It would have been very hard for Benito Mussolini to admire the Marshall Plan since the plan wasn't even formulated until 1947 and Mussolini died in 1945.

Also, the quote about corporatism that you seem to love so much,while attributed to Mussolini, there is actually no evidence that he ever said it. No written document has ever been found containing the quote, and it is absent from all of the articles written by Mussolini regarding his views on Fascism.

For a more accurate quote from Mussolini regarding corporatism, try this:

"The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and useful instrument in the interest of the nation. In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.

State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management." Benito Mussolini, 1935, Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions

The type of corporatism practiced by Mussolini and other fascist regimes in the 1930's is long gone. What people mistakenly identify today as corporatism (often using the same quote you posted) is the influence that modern business seems to have over government. In other words, they believe that corporatism describes a situation where powerful and wealthy corporations actually control the government or in fact are one in the same. While one can debate whether that is true or not, equating the modern view of corporatism to actual fascist corporatism is completely inaccurate.