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Old 04-11-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,766,418 times
Reputation: 4539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
and there were spoiled rotten kids back then too.
Not NEARLY as many as now and not nearly to the extent they are now. We've pretty much all made clear that we are generalizing...not discussing individuals, but rather general trends.

I don't know how old you are, whether you have kids, or what your parents were like, but maybe your views are somewhat different because of a limited perspective.

But...think about this... Why are crime rates higher than they used to be? Why are people less friendly than they used to be (I think we could all agree this is the case)? Why are more people using drugs? Why are there police officers stationed in the schools now? Why are the teen pregnancy rates up and births to unwed mothers of all ages up? Why do today's kids disrespect adults so much?

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 04-11-2009 at 09:14 PM..

 
Old 04-11-2009, 10:30 PM
 
Location: In my skin
8,868 posts, read 13,847,311 times
Reputation: 8720
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Nope. There are exceptions to assault and child abuse laws in every state, as far as I know, for spanking. There have been bills in some state legislatures to ban it. I don't think any have passed.
Let me take back the "it is literally against the law" statement. Better said that there are serious deterrents to physically disciplining your kids and SOME have legal ramifications.

Here is one example of a man who slapped his daughter because he thought she needed something that would get her attention. She called the cops on him, then retracted. They still arrested him, then gave him some kind of warning, but his career is ruined.

Father loses career after slapping unruly daughter - Telegraph
 
Old 04-12-2009, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate View Post
So the term "spanking" isn't in the books. The law calls it battery? Child abuse? Whatver the term, the laws have made it so that striking your child is prosecutable, even in cases where it is meant only to discipline. Am I in the ball park, or am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something. afoig explained it very well, so I won't be redundant.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate View Post
Let me take back the "it is literally against the law" statement. Better said that there are serious deterrents to physically disciplining your kids and SOME have legal ramifications.

Here is one example of a man who slapped his daughter because he thought she needed something that would get her attention. She called the cops on him, then retracted. They still arrested him, then gave him some kind of warning, but his career is ruined.
That was 10 years ago, in the UK, and it involved a man slapping his daughter's bare backside in the waiting room of a dentist's office. Now let me affirm, I don't think even that should've been prosecuted. I think he should've been given a medal. But I can still tell the difference between that state of affairs and the condition of spanking per se being simply against the law.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 12:36 AM
 
Location: In my skin
8,868 posts, read 13,847,311 times
Reputation: 8720
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
That was 10 years ago, in the UK, and it involved a man slapping his daughter's bare backside in the waiting room of a dentist's office. Now let me affirm, I don't think even that should've been prosecuted. I think he should've been given a medal. But I can still tell the difference between that state of affairs and the condition of spanking per se being simply against the law.
LOL....guh. I'm batting a thousand.

I actually had a link about a man who slapped his daughter across the face for mouthing off and he was arrested. Can't find it now, put I beleive I posted it a while back.

Whatever I am missing, inapplicable links aside, we are limited as to what type of discipline we can use on our kids. This, IMO, has been a contributor to what is wrong with kids today. And I will respectfully get off that point.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,193,238 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate View Post
I actually had a link about a man who slapped his daughter across the face for mouthing off and he was arrested. Can't find it now, put I beleive I posted it a while back.
No, I was mistaken. I was confusing it with a famous case involving a Scottish teacher from about 1999. My apologies.

Quote:
Whatever I am missing, inapplicable links aside, we are limited as to what type of discipline we can use on our kids. This, IMO, has been a contributor to what is wrong with kids today. And I will respectfully get off that point.
I agree with you. But that's why I try to pour cold water on alarmism. The more alarmism, the fewer children will be spanked. The fewer children are spanked, the more it will seem like a "fringe" position to be pro-spanking. It's a vicious circle. I don't live in the UK, so I don't use UK developments to describe the current state of affairs.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 01:44 AM
 
604 posts, read 1,050,793 times
Reputation: 217
There is NO evidence that spanking improves behavior. None. Ever. Now there's plenty of evidence showing the negative effects of, the behavioral correlations of, and the long term impact of, spanking. But there's no study that shows how and why spanking is a good thing.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 01:54 AM
 
812 posts, read 2,079,285 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbledeez View Post
There is NO evidence that spanking improves behavior. None. Ever. Now there's plenty of evidence showing the negative effects of, the behavioral correlations of, and the long term impact of, spanking. But there's no study that shows how and why spanking is a good thing.
thank you and people are crazy. hitting is assault period and teaching your kids that assault is an acceptable way to handle a problem is disgusting. it's still unbelievable that they think it's okay to hit someone just because it's a child. i don't care who it is, if they do i don't think that's a good parent. if a child is in immediate danger and needs to be moved then that's one thing as in picking them up etc but not hitting. there are other ways to discipline and treating children like they don't deserve human respect but treated demeanly like cattle is atrocious. it's just very base. there is no excuse to spank or hit a child. adults aren't spanked, slapped or hit when they do wrong or make a mistake in life or at work. those who are proponents of spanking should have that done to them and see how they feel about it. lol

i'm very sure the ones who physically assault as adults were taught that it is okay to handle others that way in some way or another.

they also never stop to think or consider how spanking came to be in the first place and why adults are not. In a predatorial world, children being smaller and with no power were easily bullied. This is the origin of spanking, basically hitting! because it's the easiest and most convenient way to control someone else!

Sometimes physical force is necessary such as what police officers do to those who assault others as well but what's so heinous about institutional spanking is it's used for any type of infraction unrelated to physical aggression and perpetrated onto the victim as it's easy. that is actually ethically criminal to hit someone who is not doing that to you or posing you any harm. that is the only, ever, excuse to hit or spank someone. even the youngest toddler doesn't need even a light pat on the bottom or a slap on the hand as a reprimand. you can just shake the hand and tell them no, they do get it! people can read intent, even the smallest child. there are so many ways to teach and hitting is just plain criminal.

i'm in no way saying there aren't bad kids out there but bad adults are protected from personal assault. the only reason hitting adults is not considered acceptable is because adults are grown enough to defend or intimidate others! they also don't consider this. so this institutionally accepted form of so-called discipline is actually very dark and deceptive. it's the easy way out and those who spank are bad parents. period!

can you imagine the first parent to hit their child as a way to control them? that is not a good person, it's just plain bullying.

Last edited by leaana; 04-12-2009 at 02:34 AM..
 
Old 04-12-2009, 02:38 AM
 
455 posts, read 886,074 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Not NEARLY as many as now and not nearly to the extent they are now. We've pretty much all made clear that we are generalizing...not discussing individuals, but rather general trends.

I don't know how old you are, whether you have kids, or what your parents were like, but maybe your views are somewhat different because of a limited perspective.

But...think about this... Why are crime rates higher than they used to be? Why are people less friendly than they used to be (I think we could all agree this is the case)? Why are more people using drugs? Why are there police officers stationed in the schools now? Why are the teen pregnancy rates up and births to unwed mothers of all ages up? Why do today's kids disrespect adults so much?
Your 'general trends' are not actually backed up by facts. These are only your opinions on current culture.

Crime rate claim
United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2007

As you can see in the chart in the link, the US has seen a decrease in the crime rate in nearly every year since 1990. In 2007, the crime rate was the lowest it has been since 1969. If we are to use crime rates as a metric for 'morality', then the current generation would be morally superior.

Teen pregnancy claim

Teen Birth Rate Rises in U.S., Reversing a 14-Year Decline - washingtonpost.com

As you can see in the link above, there has been a steady decline in teen pregnancy rates since 1991 (though there has been a slight increase the last couple years).

As you can see from the chart above. The 1950's and 1960's had the highest rate of teenage pregnancies. If you insist on using this as a metric, then the current generation would be morally superior to previous generations.


Please do not use unfounded claims to support your argument. It makes your argument look weak.
 
Old 04-12-2009, 03:11 AM
 
455 posts, read 886,074 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Not NEARLY as many as now and not nearly to the extent they are now. We've pretty much all made clear that we are generalizing...not discussing individuals, but rather general trends.

I don't know how old you are, whether you have kids, or what your parents were like, but maybe your views are somewhat different because of a limited perspective.

But...think about this... Why are crime rates higher than they used to be? Why are people less friendly than they used to be (I think we could all agree this is the case)? Why are more people using drugs? Why are there police officers stationed in the schools now? Why are the teen pregnancy rates up and births to unwed mothers of all ages up? Why do today's kids disrespect adults so much?
I am going to address this one with facts as well:

Drug use claim
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus08.pdf#067

As you can see in the chart in the link above, 2007 saw much lower drug use than in 1980. 1990 did do a bit better on Marijuana and Cocaine, however. Since 1980 (earliest data I could find), there has been a general decline in drug use amongst teenagers. Therefore, if this is a metric for morality, the current generation would appear to be morally superior.


I'm seeing a correlation in declining drug use, declining teen pregnancies, and declining crime rates to another trend in the United States: a decline in allegiance to a certain set of dogmatic doctrines. This is just a personal inference I have made, and by no means am saying that the correlation is conclusive.
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