U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-18-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: 20 years from now
5,520 posts, read 5,719,425 times
Reputation: 3448

Advertisements

capitalism like many things is a necessary evil.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-19-2010, 02:29 AM
 
2,038 posts, read 3,744,833 times
Reputation: 3180
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
While there is some humor in "Capitalism," it brought forth some very good points, IMO.

As for this system capable of being either moral or immoral, how to reverse the current trend towards immorality in Corporate America? More laws? Uber-sized taxes on the rich like they used to in the 40's through the 70's?

Or how about more people living like this? : Altruism - What Is It?

Not a "system" per sec, but people treating each other in a kinder, caring way instead of "making a fast buck, to hell with the consequences." When our current system falls down, as I'm sure it will, perhaps we'll have a chance to live in a more altruist society. I certainly hope that this will be the case.
That was so concise and elegantly stated, you get rep!

I agree that capitalism without morality will eventually eat itself. We are in a very dangerous place.

Ghandi said that capitalism without morality will ultimately fail and I agree.

I agree with altruism as well. Wouldn't it be nice if we could give so much of ourselves that we put our government out of business?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,492 posts, read 51,399,522 times
Reputation: 24613
I can only hope our corrupted Capitalism (capitalize gains, socialize losses) eventually is morphed into a socialism for all system like much of Europe where jobs are spread out amongst to population and most can live a fairly decent life even if they do not work as hard as possible.

We could start by reinstituting 1940's tax rates and applying them to all income from all sources including capital gains, inheritance and bonuses.

The business of capitalism is amoral at best and absolutely criminal at worst. It is greed codified into a system and a class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Suffolk County, NY
874 posts, read 2,491,548 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraynard Kruger View Post
That was so concise and elegantly stated, you get rep!

I agree that capitalism without morality will eventually eat itself. We are in a very dangerous place.

Ghandi said that capitalism without morality will ultimately fail and I agree.

I agree with altruism as well. Wouldn't it be nice if we could give so much of ourselves that we put our government out of business?
Keep dreaming. There is always someone ready to lead the people and there are always people that are ready to follow. The leader types like the power that they feel over the followers and the followers like the benefit of having what the leader provides (whatever it may be; protection, money, peace of mind, etc.) for them without having to work as hard as the leader does. Therefore, your little altruistic society would never work.

I enjoy all of the hypocritical posts in threads such as these. I tend to believe that the majority of people posting in these threads are not poor or homeless people. If this is the case, then why would people who have a place to live, have access to some sort of transportation and have the basic essentials needed to live really care that there are CEO's of major corporations that have millions of dollars? The way I see it, the people complaining about those with much more are doing so out of jealousy. I really would not care if everyone who lives in my community suddenly started making millions of dollars and I was left living the way I do. I have the basic essentials I need for myself and my family to live as well as own a home, a truck and even some non-essentials I do not necessarily need to live.

I know this post will bring about many of those who swear that they are thinking about the people who are more downtrodden then they themselves are but I will say that approximately 90% of the people who say that are really thinking of themselves and hoping that they themselves can benefit by doing less and having the same they have now or more than they have now. How many people that speak of a more socialist society really do anything right now on their own to help others that are not living as well as they are? I have done and still do volunteer work and I do whatever I can to help those that need help with things in my community (whether it be repairing cars without accepting money for it, helping with projects around their homes, etc.). One thing I will not do is help people that do not do or do not want to do anything to help themselves.

How can anyone take anything Michael Moore does or says seriously? The guy makes a lot of money by making these nonsense films that try to turn people against one another. Does Michael Moore take the majority of the money he makes and give it to the downtrodden keeping only the average amount of money made by an American family for himself? Of course not. He makes sure that he uses the very system and country he condemns to keep himself living quite comfortably. No matter how someone tries to spin it, the guy is nothing more than a hypocrite.

In the past I have worked two or even three jobs at the same time just to get by. I was doing what I had to in order to better my situation and did so. That is the good thing with our country. If someone is willing to work hard they can succeed. To me, succeeding does not mean becoming rich, it means being able to pay my bills and having a little extra left over. I have met many people that are out of work than can get two or even three lower paying jobs to help themselves but they have the "I would never lower myself to do that job" mentality. Do people such as this deserve to live the same as those of us who are willing to do whatever we have to in order to get by? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding "no".

I also believe that whether you want to call our country a democracy, republic, free market society, capitalist or any other name; there are more people in this country throughout the years that came from nothing and made themselves total successes with many becoming rich than you will find in other countries.

As far as those that like to say everyone is the "same", wake up and realize this is not true. I am not talking about as far as race or gender goes, but, rather as an individual. Some are smarter, some stronger, some faster, some criminal, some corrupt, some greedy, etc. No matter what government, economic system or social structure people create, these individuals will always be there, some contributing more to the society and some working to break it down. I believe our current structure (until Obama and the Obamaites ruin it) is fine since it allows people not only to whine about things such as they do in these threads, but also to go out and do something to help either ourselves or others. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL and I personally see this as a good thing.

This truly is a land of opportunity and it is up to the individual to make the right decisions and work hard when the opportunity arises. Those that do not make it usually only have themselves to blame for doing the wrong things or making the wrong decisions. I suppose human nature makes people not want to admit when things are their own fault so it is easier to blame those that did make the correct decisions for their predicament.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 09:04 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,801 posts, read 7,370,211 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I can only hope our corrupted Capitalism (capitalize gains, socialize losses) eventually is morphed into a socialism for all system like much of Europe where jobs are spread out amongst to population and most can live a fairly decent life even if they do not work as hard as possible.

We could start by reinstituting 1940's tax rates and applying them to all income from all sources including capital gains, inheritance and bonuses.

The business of capitalism is amoral at best and absolutely criminal at worst. It is greed codified into a system and a class.
You keep posting the same thing but when I post tax facts you ignore them. Try having a discussion as opposed to hit and run opinionated rants.

Why are so many countries in Europe doing away with a lot of their socialist programs?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 09:19 AM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,400,201 times
Reputation: 2655
I don't think tried and true Capitalism is immoral - rather, I think what Capitalism has seem to become i.e. "Consumerism" and "What's in it for me?" is what's immoral.

When we tout small business as being "the backbone of the economy" and then set the most foolish laws and requirements for them to operate, and don't cut them any slack tax-wise, it is a common sense given to me that we aren't going to be able to prosper. Yes, big business brings jobs to a local area, but unfortunately, many either do not offer fulltime hours or high enough wages such that an employee often relies on state aid to make ends meet. In this regard, we are not only supporting a profitable juggernaut, we are also subsidizing it while being convinced that it is a great supporter of the local economy. In other words, IMO, we are being taken for a ride.

IMHO, somewhere along the way we have lost the very definition of "monopoly" and as a result, Capitalism is suffering.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,492 posts, read 51,399,522 times
Reputation: 24613
Hilgi - just what "tax facts" have you posted? I seem to have missed them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,801 posts, read 7,370,211 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Hilgi - just what "tax facts" have you posted? I seem to have missed them.
Hi Greg,

There are similar topics going on over severals threads. Here is one.

Trying to make tax on our production fair won't...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,313 posts, read 3,881,857 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by EZICIT View Post

The high intent of this thread seems to have degenerated into "my 'ism, is better than your 'ism".
I do understand that our thinking is limited by the belief that ours is the greatest society/country that the world has ever known.
Unfortunately, I am not educated in political history, but, to me, we are following the same path to disaster as every great civilization that preceded us.
Here's what I see - Every group (herd) has a leader. Every leader has power. Power produces opportunities for wealth. Wealth then faciilitates an increase in power (influence), and so it goes . . . .
As long as the people prosper - all is well.
But, at some point, like any parasite, the powerful & wealthy start to eat away at their own 'host'.
This is evidenced by our current situation where the super wealthy have taken our homes, our jobs and our security, and then, never to be satisfied, they have our government borrow trillions of dollars from foreign countries for bank 'bail-outs', and pay it to themselves as 'bonuses'.
As has already been pointed out, the modern 'business model', (Walmart, Disney, Banks ...) involves cutting your employees down to minimum wage, laying off as many as possible, borrowing as much money as they can and reducing a once-mighty corporation to an empty shell.
All 'ism's' result in a small, ruling class which destroys it's own culture . .
Always has - Always will . . . . .
The problems you are stating do exist. However, the 'ism' part is interesting. I happen to believe in capitalism to be a better system. Perfect? No. Any system can be abused by someone. Oppression has existed and still exists in any system and capitalism is no exception. You mention all the horrors you see in our system. However, in the overall picture our system has produced the countries that are among the better living standards.
Sometimes people get all tangled up with data, polls, statistics and they go back and forth with the data that suits their views. I will venture that statistics is an areas that can very well be manipulated. When a subject as complicated as economics is, it will be difficult to come to an agreement. I believe you and I will not agree so I won't even try to through my sources and you will do the same with not end.
When this happens then ask to you to look around. The horrors of capitalism do no deter people from around the world to emigrate to those countries that have follow the horrorific and oppressive capitalist system despite the picture you paint. Do you see capitalist countries having a people drain because of the abuses and go to China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc? In my opinion is no even though I see people praising their system. People in some ways are not different than animals. They migrate where the chances of survival exist where there is more food, better chances of a job, safety, freedom of speech, etc.
So take out all the horrors you mention and tell me where do people around the world migrate to? Wherever they go, do you think is for masochistic purposes because they want to live of life of more oppression?
Your comment: I do understand that our thinking is limited by the belief that ours is the greatest society/country that the world has ever known.

To some degree I agree with you. It is called 'bounded rationality'. We all do that. However, I am sure as I do try to have as much a picture in a subject to make the best decision or the most fair view and so on.
That is why I stated the your stats and mine or your 'ism' and my 'ism' in the end will not allow us to agree because the bottom line it may be and economic/political preference.
So as I stated before where do people go where they think they will have a better life? You know my answer.

The last point. I do agree with the you as far as the problem that they exist. My comment on that is that we as a nation have become to spoiled, materialistic and expect nothing less than what we have. Sacrifice and living within your means have gone by the wayside as I see it and we are not paying the price.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-19-2010, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,492 posts, read 51,399,522 times
Reputation: 24613
I think capitalism would work fine if we could keep the businessmen and their political stooges from messing with it. It is very difficult to make a profit in a completely free market. This is why businessmen are continuously devising ways to subvert the market and create their own private, or government sanctioned, monopoly or variants.

GM was created to eliminate competition between several smaller companies. Audi is another example. Carnegie used his company's sheer size to price competitors into bankruptcy. Then he gained a monopoly on some critical steel products like railroad rail. J. D. Rockefeller did the same by creating Standard Oil whose monopoly set the “standard” for the oil industry ever since. His company controlled access to oil to support the price.

These are all examples of how the capitalist system can be abused. They are still happening but the government no longer interferes with the thieves.

Capitalist morality is conceivable. Business morality is an oxymoron
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top