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from my own personal experience, I want to respectably disagree w/ this. sure, this may have been the case in the past, but unless I missed the line of white people joining hands and shouting "you can't move here", there isn't much preventing blacks in most areas of this country from moving to a white area, other than a preconceived assumption they will be unwelcomed.
I'm black and I'm SICK of other blacks asking me why I don't live in the South side, why I currently live in a mostly Puerto Rican neighborhood now and why I lived in a mostly Mexican neighborhood before. frankly, I don't look at the race of my neighbors before deciding on where to move. I didn't think, "I think I'll move to Pilsen b/c it's mostly Mexican" or "I think I've live in Humboldt Park b/c of all the Ricans living here". there are far bigger, more important criteria I look for when moving to a new area that goes beyond race. you're right, blacks and whites have lived in this country together for a long time, so why so much self segregation? there's no reason why blacks sick of crime in Englewood can't move to, say, Bridgeport, other than an assumption of discrimination (and I know black people that live in Bridgeport w/o issue). vice versa, no reason why whites can't move to stable, mostly black communities other than an assumption of discrimination
the question here is, are blacks avoiding integration b/c they fear/assume they will not be welcomed, or are there still enough widespread, current day examples of blacks moving into white areas and being discriminated against? b/c, from my own personal experience of having lived in mostly white areas, I've never been met w/ any hostility. going back to the original topic, I doubt, from my past encounters w/ people from Portland, Ore, that black people can't move to Portland w/o issues. so question is, why aren't they moving there? and PLEASE, don't say something like "whites don't want them to".
seriously, I'm black, though I identify myself more as a Haitian American as opposed to a black American, but black people can't blame all our ills on whites and past slavery. I swear, this may explode into another topic of debate, but this is only really an issue w/ black Americans. I've never heard of other members of the black slave diaspora hanging onto this notion of what the white man did to us" as an excuse for current ills. Lord knows, Haiti has some bones to pick w/ France and whites, but I've never heard Haitians complain about reparations and hang onto past injustices as much as some black Americans I've come across, the type of black Americans that will cry "racist" if a white person does anything remotely negative towards them. IMO, whites have taken responsibility for their actions, it's just that some blacks will never forgive them no matter how much time has passed, no matter how much has changed. until blacks can do this, things will never change b/c progress can't be made when people are still holding grudges that can't be remedied. JMHO/IME
First of all, your argument is a straw man fallacy. You, in your respectful disagreement, implied that I suggested that something physical was preventing black people from moving into other areas. I said no such thing and did not imply any such thing. So where did you get that from? Obviously you have a personal issue with or complex about blacks making comments to you about why you live where you do. You are treating me as if I am one of those people and you are substituting me for a conversation that you should be having with them. Don’t just lump me in with them and assume that what we believe is the same.
Secondly, I am in total agreement with you that the biggest barrier is mental or perception of not being wanted. I made that racist point way back in this debate…..lol. My premise has always been the racist belief that all actions produce reactions. I picked that up from the racist theories and teachings of Sir Isaac Newton. Thus, the reaction to centuries of anti-black attitudes is that blacks don’t think they are wanted in many communities. You take that history coupled with contemporary complaints coming from whites, about black areas and how they don’t want “those types” in their communities; it’s very predictable and understandable why blacks may feel that they are not wanted in other communities. Hell, in California Hispanic gangs in some communities have been targeting blacks to drive them out. I don’t know any group that has demonstrated much love for black people….when we have done nothing to anyone but ourselves. The Spanish speaking nations have their own history of racism against black peoples.
Finally, all black communities are not like Englewood in "Chi" or Brightmore in Detroit. These are not typical black communities so why would you feel someone is suggesting that you live there. Southfield Michigan, a Detroit suburb, is a nice middle class suburb that is about 60% black today, when it was only about 25% black a couple of decades ago. There violent crime and murder rates are low….but whites keep moving out and few are interested in moving in and blacks feel comfortable and feel that they will be accepted so they are attracted to that city. So the issue of crime is simply a red herring. Southfield proves that. These are middle class black folks with nice homes who keep up their yards and who go to work every day…yet, whites continue to move out and show no interest of moving in.
In a small town about an hour away from where I live the KKK was going to try and hold a rally (I don't think it ever materialized). There's this black woman I know at work and we briefly discussed the would-be Klan rally. She thought that it did no good to try to rationalize with racists. She believed that a racist's mind does not work logically, and so a discussion with a racist is pointless. I have come to agree with her, and it is for that reason I have ceased posting to Indentured Servant.
No...the reason that you stopped posting to me is that you failed to change my opinion because your argument was not tenable. Its interesting that you choose to single me out as a racist.....but have not called out any white comments, in this topic, as such....lol.
Its because you had the idiotic belief that a black person, being fearful and hence defensive that they will be discriminated against, is an example of black racism....lol. That is the most absurd thing that I have ever heard, in regards to what is an example of black racism is. Yes...base upon your silly working defintion of what racism is.....yes....I am a racist.
I have 300 years of historical FACTS to back up what I say......you got NOTHIN!
First of all, your argument is a straw man fallacy. You, in your respectful disagreement, implied that I suggested that something physical was preventing black people from moving into other areas. I said no such thing and did not imply any such thing. So where did you get that from?
obviously it was a joke what, do I have to note this to you so you don't get confused? obviously there aren't white people pulling a "Red Rover" near Portland's border
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Obviously you have a personal issue with or complex about blacks making comments to you about why you live where you do. You are treating me as if I am one of those people and you are substituting me for a conversation that you should be having with them. Don’t just lump me in with them and assume that what we believe is the same.
making a point that you seemed to have missed. must I label everything for you? ok, here goes: that was an EXAMPLE from my own personal experience about something pertaining to the topic at hand. hate to break it to you, but not everything revolves around you or your ideas so no, I didn't lump you in w/ anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Secondly, I am in total agreement with you that the biggest barrier is mental or perception of not being wanted. I made that racist point way back in this debate…..lol. My premise has always been the racist belief that all actions produce reactions. I picked that up from the racist theories and teachings of Sir Isaac Newton. Thus, the reaction to centuries of anti-black attitudes is that blacks don’t think they are wanted in many communities. You take that history coupled with contemporary complaints coming from whites, about black areas and how they don’t want “those types” in their communities; it’s very predictable and understandable why blacks may feel that they are not wanted in other communities. Hell, in California Hispanic gangs in some communities have been targeting blacks to drive them out. I don’t know any group that has demonstrated much love for black people….when we have done nothing to anyone but ourselves. The Spanish speaking nations have their own history of racism against black peoples.
hell, now we blaming Issac Newton.
WE GET IT! "People" don't like black people. okay fine. black people have been put down since dinosaurs roamed the Earth (hint, hint, that was sarcasm right there. just making sure you're catching up). guess what? GET OVER IT ALREADY!! Jesus Christ? are black people supposed to sit at home and go "woes is me, no one likes me, everyone has enslaved me, so I'm just going to keeping messing up and blame my poor lot in life on Isaac Newton and his band of racist bullies?" what, do you think black people are the only one dealing w/ racism? you think blacks were the only ones enslaved. for the love of God, stop the victim mentality, otherwise, that's ALL you'll be, a victim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Finally, all black communities are not like Englewood in "Chi" or Brightmore in Detroit. These are not typical black communities so why would you feel someone is suggesting that you live there. Southfield Michigan, a Detroit suburb, is a nice middle class suburb that is about 60% black today, when it was only about 25% black a couple of decades ago. There violent crime and murder rates are low….but whites keep moving out and few are interested in moving in and blacks feel comfortable and feel that they will be accepted so they are attracted to that city. So the issue of crime is simply a red herring. Southfield proves that. These are middle class black folks with nice homes who keep up their yards and who go to work every day…yet, whites continue to move out and show no interest of moving in.
well, not talking about Detroit, I'm talking about Chicago. AGAIN, I was giving a personal example, which you seem to have missed. it just so happened that one of the person who gave the comment was from Englewood, hence why I used it in the example. and yes, there are awesome, majority black neighborhoods, maybe even a few in the Chicago-area (not sure, I'm not originally from IL), but lets, be honest here and quit f-ing around: several of the majority black areas in Chicago are crime ridden. again, were not talking about Detroit here so don't accusing me of bringing up "straw man" fallacy when your example has nothing to do w/ the city and state I was talking about (or really, the city or state the OP was talking about (again, personal example), but this topic has long jumped ship)
honestly, I have no time or patience for blacks continuing on this victim mode. there's NOTHING keeping some kid in the South side (again, this is an example, keep up here) from excelling, just his own self and culture tripping him. there's no reason at all why people can come to this country w/ barely a penny to their name or a lick on English and can graduate w/ a college degree, but we've got a community of black men where more than half barely graduate high school. how long do you keep blaming Newton and the white race as a whole. don't say there are no resources, they exist (I've used them), but you can't force someone to make something of themselves.
IS, what is it the white race can do, as a whole, to make up for what's been done to the black race so that all is squared away and blacks can no longer fall back on this tired out excuse of past slavery as a reason on why they're still screwing up? I say "they" b/c, again, I've noticed this mentality among other blacks who have been just as affect by the slave trade as blacks in America but don't seem to hold the everlasting grudge you and others like you seem to have.
I think the bottom line problem is that we are a "race-oriented" society. I think there's been almost no inroads onto this area in forty years. That was the Civil Rights Revolution where we had school segregation made illegal. Part of the eventual fallout has been that white folks can not have their own specifically white clubs and organizations without public outcry. There are no White Americans Bicycle Clubs, for example, yet there are such things for blacks.
I think the future direction of society concerning race relations is largely up to black folks. The ball is in their court, so to speak. If blacks want their own separate communities, Afrocentric schools, etc., if blacks believe that feeling at ease with "their own kind" has a greater importance than integration and assimilation, then there is no end in sight to racial problems. White folks (except for guys like me) will not implore blacks to give up separatism to join the larger culture and live as neighbors. Taking the step has not been possible for many black people. But others have succeeded. There is still an element of racial discrimination, but I think it's preferred than continuing the status quo.
One day I will be able to turn on the Sunday Morning news programs and here an hour long black perspective. Let’s see, which of the major network or cable news outlets offers an opinion from the perspective of black people, moderated by black people? Yet, if black people get their own Cable news stations and call it “Black News”, meaning news from a black perspective, black people are self segregating themselves and are racist. Wrong! Black people create their own because there needs are not being served by the white dominated organizations and institutions.
What white people are doing is laying the foundation for the continuation of their unbroken history of racism against black people. Each generation has to find a new rationalization to carry one what their forefathers and mothers passed on to them. This current generation of white folks are taking the reaction in black folks, to the racist actions of past white folks, to justify their current negative view of black people. Like I said before, you punch someone and they get angry, then you punch them again because they are angry, then the curse you, and you punch them again for cursing you….etc. That is the game white folks are playing. They are justifying their racism from the reactions to blacks from previous racism. That is why it is up to black people, in his view, to change things. What he is saying is that if we simply stop manifesting negative reactions to the racism of whites…..then whites will stop being racist. All we need to do is pull ourselves out of poverty, find employment, stop trying to defend ourselves, stop using the past to explain the present……..in other words……accept domination or receive more of it!
This reminds me of what they tell women who are being rapped……don’t resist or you will only make matters worse, by angering your attacker. Just submit to the rape and they may let you live. Based upon GalioS, it’s totally up to the women, and not the rapist, that determines the outcome.
obviously it was a joke what, do I have to note this to you so you don't get confused? obviously there aren't white people pulling a "Red Rover" near Portland's border
making a point that you seemed to have missed. must I label everything for you? ok, here goes: that was an EXAMPLE from my own personal experience about something pertaining to the topic at hand. hate to break it to you, but not everything revolves around you or your ideas so no, I didn't lump you in w/ anyone else.
hell, now we blaming Issac Newton.
WE GET IT! "People" don't like black people. okay fine. black people have been put down since dinosaurs roamed the Earth (hint, hint, that was sarcasm right there. just making sure you're catching up). guess what? GET OVER IT ALREADY!! Jesus Christ? are black people supposed to sit at home and go "woes is me, no one likes me, everyone has enslaved me, so I'm just going to keeping messing up and blame my poor lot in life on Isaac Newton and his band of racist bullies?" what, do you think black people are the only one dealing w/ racism? you think blacks were the only ones enslaved. for the love of God, stop the victim mentality, otherwise, that's ALL you'll be, a victim
well, not talking about Detroit, I'm talking about Chicago. AGAIN, I was giving a personal example, which you seem to have missed. it just so happened that one of the person who gave the comment was from Englewood, hence why I used it in the example. and yes, there are awesome, majority black neighborhoods, maybe even a few in the Chicago-area (not sure, I'm not originally from IL), but lets, be honest here and quit f-ing around: several of the majority black areas in Chicago are crime ridden. again, were not talking about Detroit here so don't accusing me of bringing up "straw man" fallacy when your example has nothing to do w/ the city and state I was talking about (or really, the city or state the OP was talking about (again, personal example), but this topic has long jumped ship)
honestly, I have no time or patience for blacks continuing on this victim mode. there's NOTHING keeping some kid in the South side (again, this is an example, keep up here) from excelling, just his own self and culture tripping him. there's no reason at all why people can come to this country w/ barely a penny to their name or a lick on English and can graduate w/ a college degree, but we've got a community of black men where more than half barely graduate high school. how long do you keep blaming Newton and the white race as a whole. don't say there are no resources, they exist (I've used them), but you can't force someone to make something of themselves.
IS, what is it the white race can do, as a whole, to make up for what's been done to the black race so that all is squared away and blacks can no longer fall back on this tired out excuse of past slavery as a reason on why they're still screwing up? I say "they" b/c, again, I've noticed this mentality among other blacks who have been just as affect by the slave trade as blacks in America but don't seem to hold the everlasting grudge you and others like you seem to have.
No. You QUOTED me, so I hate to break it to you, if it’s not about me, then don’t QUOTE ME! Quoting me implies that you are responding to me and not the original topics…..understand? Furthermore, your personal experience is not proven to be a microcosm of the big picture……so I ask….who cares? How does your personal experience explain anything about the general topic at hand? How does it refute or support anything about the big picture of this phenomenon? Let me answer that for you…..it doesn’t. Everybody has a personal experience to share, but when talking about a national phenomenon; your story is just one in 300 million and in no way proves or disproves anything about the whole. Thanks for sharing….but it’s not germane.
No…..sorry….you cannot get over human nature unless you stop being human. It’s human to have a reaction. It’s human to have fears born from a history of being mistreated. It’s human to resent being mistreated and it’s human to stand up and defend ourselves. The day we “get over it” is that day we stop being human…which may be a threshold that you personally have breeched.
Like I told posters before you, I am not into non intellectual terms like excuses or blame or victim. All I am into is the law of nature that manifests the rule that all actions produce reactions. You can call those reactions victimology, blame or excuses….whatever make you feel validated or “special”. There is a reason for everything. Nothing just “is” and if black people are making excuses, playing the victim or placing blame more than others, then there is an action that created that reaction….there is a cause to that effect, whether you are sick of hearing it, don’t want to hear it, like hearing, indifferent…….it just don’t matter because it’s TRUE. Unless you can call something a lie………you aint said jack slit, other than demonstrate your displeasure. Well….I hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of people don’t like the truth….a lot of people are sick of the truth…..and a lot of people are made uncomfortable by the truth….so the fact that you are all those things…….don’t mean a damn thing to me. If you are sick….get some medication.
He wants to whine about whites, yet you don't see him packing up for Africa.
Is there any doubt Africa and the Saudi penninsula are the center of all that sucks. The religions people fight over, the oil, crap like diamonds.
Heard on the radio today... in Yemen, a 9 year old girl was sold into a "marriage"... the "husband" tied her up, raped her and she bled to death.
Take all the women and children out and nuke the place.
The rest of the world should just quarantine both places.
Pfftt... yeah whites are so terrible.
I wouldn't doubt there are still cannibals in africa.
This is too funny....a bunch of white folks get together to high five each other abount not living near black people and not wanting to live near black people and why black people in general should not be lived near.....yet (you cannot make this stuff up...lol) here I am, a black person, choosing to live around white people, don't mind living around white people.....and I am the racist who should leave this country if I don't like white folks....lol.
For your information...I am actually entertaining the idea of moving to Ghana or Tanzania when I retire. I have friends in both countries and have been there. My motive is not to move away from white folks....I can live around any group. I just like Africa. I also think that by the time I reach the age of retirement that this country will be up tird creek without a paddle economically with millions of people not knowing how to survive off the land. Places such as Africa, were people currently live off the land, their will be less social and economic disruption.
I'm sorry, but you will be attacked for your hostile overtone. You may prefer to live in a "white majority city," but I bet your grandchildren will not have that opportunity. lol
Hostile overtone?
The OP is merely pointing to an article that is bashing a city for being too white. Absolutely that is a changing phenomenon throughout the US and I certainly have no issue with that....except when racists write articles like this.
Imagine someone saying they'd like town "A" better if it didn't have so many Blacks?
Without a doubt, we are developing a culture of the "free pass" in todays younger people. This means that as long as you are yourself non-white, you can make disparaging racial statements about other races, gays etc. with impunity. I saw this all the time in college, knowing enough of various languages like Spanish and some *interesting* Korean phrases to make my eyes pop out of my head by what people would say about blacks walking by, whites, and various other races. Even my (black) buddies mom complained to him that he had too many white friends.
I am zero tolerance on the topic, no free passes to anyone wanting to hate.
The OP is merely pointing to an article that is bashing a city for being too white. Absolutely that is a changing phenomenon throughout the US and I certainly have no issue with that....except when racists write articles like this.
Imagine someone saying they'd like town "A" better if it didn't have so many Blacks?
Without a doubt, we are developing a culture of the "free pass" in todays younger people. This means that as long as you are yourself non-white, you can make disparaging racial statements about other races, gays etc. with impunity. I saw this all the time in college, knowing enough of various languages like Spanish and some *interesting* Korean phrases to make my eyes pop out of my head by what people would say about blacks walking by, whites, and various other races. Even my (black) buddies mom complained to him that he had too many white friends.
I am zero tolerance on the topic, no free passes to anyone wanting to hate.
What you say is true. The question is, for those who seek intellectual understanding, why is it true? Let me put in this way; "is it a double standard to let a 2 year old hit an adult, as hard as they can, yet an adult not be able to hit a 2 year old as hard as they can"? It’s true that it is a double standard, but again, the understanding, if not acceptance, is in the details that differentiates the two parties. Here is another analogy. Say someone has a weak immune system and another has a strong immune system, is it a double standard that one is treated differently, in regards to what they can be exposed to? Yes, it’s definitely a double standard, but again, the understanding, if not acceptance, is born from the details.
The problem with much of the analyses and conclusions of whites is that it is all superficial observations……with no details or explanations. Whites don’t seem at all concerned about or respectful of the history of blacks or the condition of blacks, in regards to why double standards exist. It does not matter that for 300 years, blacks have been oppressed by the racist thinking of a white society. It does not matter that today, black poverty is 3 times the rate of whites or that black unemployment is 2 times that of whites or that black wealth is about 14 times less than whites. It does not matter that when you look at the world the starving children, the poorest people……are black. I guess all we need to do is learn to laugh at ourselves and our condition and not be sensitive about it. Let them eat cake!
White people are in a position of power and dominance in the country and the world. You are the richest and wealthiest group. What the hell are you sensitive about……other then the facts of the way you got it? Do you think black people would really give a rats arse about what white folks have to say if we were 14 times wealthier than you, a poverty rate 3 times less than yours and an unemployment rate 2 times less than yours? There are double standards because there is inequality. If you have a problem with black people being able to say things or do things that white folks cannot do, then how about sharing our rate of poverty with us, then how about sharing our levels of wealth (the lack there of), how about sharing our rate of unemployment, how about sharing our rate of infant mortality, homicides, disease and all the other “double standards” and realities that exists. Those differences exist for the same history that explains why a majority white city, in a multi-racial nation, can be viewed with aspersions.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-21-2010 at 11:18 AM..
What you say is true. The question is, for those who seek intellectual understanding, why is it true? Let me put in this way; "is it a double standard to let a 2 year old hit an adult, as hard as they can, yet an adult not be able to hit a 2 year old as hard as they can"? It’s true that it is a double standard, but again, the understanding, if not acceptance, is in the details that differentiates the two parties. Here is another analogy. Say someone has a weak immune system and another has a strong immune system, is it a double standard that one is treated differently, in regards to what they can be exposed to? Yes, it’s definitely a double standard, but again, the understanding, if not acceptance, is born from the details.
The problem with much of the analyses and conclusions of whites is that it is all superficial observations……with no details or explanations. Whites don’t seem at all concerned about or respectful of the history of blacks or the condition of blacks, in regards to why double standards exist. It does not matter that for 300 years, blacks have been oppressed by the racist thinking of a white society. It does not matter that today, black poverty is 3 times the rate of whites or that black unemployment is 2 times that of whites or that black wealth is about 14 times less than whites. It does not matter that when you look at the world the starving children, the poorest people……are black. I guess all we need to do is learn to laugh at ourselves and our condition and not be sensitive about it. Let them eat cake!
White people are in a position of power and dominance in the country and the world. You are the richest and wealthiest group. What the hell are you sensitive about……other then the facts of the way you got it? Do you think black people would really give a rats arse about what white folks have to say if we were 14 times wealthier than you, a poverty rate 3 times less than yours and an unemployment rate 2 times less than yours? There are double standards because there is inequality. If you have a problem with black people being able to say things or do things that white folks cannot do, then how about sharing our rate of poverty with us, then how about sharing our levels of wealth (the lack there of), how about sharing our rate of unemployment, how about sharing our rate of infant mortality, homicides, disease and all the other “double standards” and realities that exists. Those differences exist for the same history that explains why a majority white city, in a multi-racial nation, can be viewed with aspersions.
My post was a condemnation of RACIST VIEWS regardless of the race of originator as WRONG. Sorry you disagree with me.
Perhaps if you'd heard a group of Koreans call a black person (in korean) "F****** N*****" while walking by and laughing you'd have a CLUE what I was talking about. But don't worry, they are a minority so next time instead of looking at them in disgust I will shrug because they've been oppressed too so it's A-OK.
So go ahead calling me cracker and make some nasty comments if you are cut off in traffic by a hispanic or don't like the service at a Korean restaurant ....you've earned the right and can play your get out of racism free card while they return the favor.
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what, do I have to note this to you so you don't get confused? obviously there aren't white people pulling a "Red Rover" near Portland's border 
