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there exists a relatively modern phenomenon in our society, media and educational system where the minority is exalted no matter what and the majority is both silently and openly chastised or even demonized.
I must have missed that phenomenon in the hail of welfare cheat and crime stories. And I surely have missed the demonization of western culture, and the total lack of programing in the arts, movies and literature exalting European history and culture.
My comments and complaints are not directed toward people like you - they are directed toward the politically-correct attitudes present in certain areas of our society and toward the militant seperatism that is preached by extremists on both sides. I view a white supremacist in the same light as a view a black supremacist/seperatist.
Have a black guy go on TV and say he's proud to be black. Then have a white guy go on TV and say he's proud to be white. Watch the difference between how both declarations are accepted.
I don't want anybody to kiss my ass, and I'm not going to kiss anybody else's ass. I'm not going to fawn over a rich white guy because he has a nice car and conversely I'm not going to fawn over a minority because their great-great grandparents got the shaft.
I am the true non-racist. I don't give a damn what color somebody is. But, I still notice inconsistencies in what the races are allowed to "get away with".
I applaud you for taking the time to discuss the points in my reply individually...that's rare on here sometimes...but I'll address one point of yours
specifically...
That being, the expression of 'pride'...somewhere along the line, the ideology of groups like the Klan and American Nazi party, and other supremacist groups, helped to tarnish the notion of a white person being able to express 'pride in their race' without having some sort of 'racist dogma' automatically being attached...far as I'm concerned, I have never had a problem with whites being proud of themselves...what DOES frost my wings is when said expression of pride is followed closely by a sneering diatribe asserting white racial superiority over minorities, as happens much to often...
I'm slowly learning (note the emphasis on slowly LOL) to tune out that mess as the ramblings of a group of whiny p**s-ants trying to cause trouble and start an unnecessary ruckus...and I'll also concur with you on your point that there is a serious difference in what the races can 'get away with'...but the mere fact that you and I are dialoguing here on this thread, while agreeing to disagree over certain things, is a triumph in and of itself...
My opinions have nothing to do with "white privilege". I just don't like the idea of rectifying racial injustice (which admittedly was real) with special benefits for minorities because it flies in the face of what true equality is. I want to live in a society where whites, blacks, orientals and eskimos all have the same abilities and chances to do what they want and where people aren't judged by their skin color. This will never happen with certain minorities segregating themselves and playing the victim card. If we want to correct the wrongs of the past and live in a society that is colorblind then focusing on race will not get us there.
Ask yourself this: If whites were to proudly proclaim pride in their race and attempt to segregate themselves would you view them as racist? What if a black person were to do the same? Would you view them as being racist as well? Are blacks allowed to (and should they) get away with more in regards to stuff like this?
You cannot provide me any LOGICAL model where what you say is true or feasible. However, let me stymie you with a logical model that supports my thesis. Lets look at the rule of linear equations in Algebra. In the rules of linear equations, whatever is done to one side must be done to the other side…….to preserve the equality. Here is a simple example.
Let’s say that in the year 1800 this was true: 2X + 2 = 22 is an equality. Where X = 10. Now say that from 1800 to 1970 things were done of the left side of equation but not the right side. Say that we added an extra “10” to the left side. Thus, in 1970 we have: 2X + 2 + 10 = 22, which is an inequality now, which you can prove by substituting X for the value 10. Now, the question for you is this: How do you restore the equality, going forward in time, by treating both sides the same? Try it! You can’t do it! It’s illogical. The ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY, way it can be done is by treating the two sides differently to compensate for the unequal treatment of the past. Therefore, from 1970 forward, equality cannot be reached until the right side of the equation gets 10 more than the left side. If you add equal amounts to each side going forward, you simply PRESERVE the inequality created from past unequal treatment of the sides.
Your position is a common position rooted in the EMOTIONAL model and not the LOGICAL model. The emotional model that you are upholding is the model that PRESERVES the traditional socioeconomic hierarchy of which whites are on top and do much better than blacks. Calls for a color-blind society, at this juncture, is simply a call to prevent the linear equation from being reconciled by giving to the other side what was given to the opposite side, which PRESERVES the inequality. Thus, no matter how you slice it, you are advocating the preservation of racial inequality….and I think you know it.
Now...where is the LOGICAL model that backs your EMOTIONAL theory?
I must have missed that phenomenon in the hail of welfare cheat and crime stories. And I surely have missed the demonization of western culture, and the total lack of programing in the arts, movies and literature exalting European history and culture.
I had to sit through many university lectures about evil white colonizers, but I digress.
There is no component of racial pride in euro-centric things and if there was the P.C. police would be out in full force. With minority culture there is an element of racial pride. I point you to my hypothetical question above: Have a black guy and a white guy go on TV and express pride in their racial heritage. How will both be received?
That being, the expression of 'pride'...somewhere along the line, the ideology of groups like the Klan and American Nazi party, and other supremacist groups, helped to tarnish the notion of a white person being able to express 'pride in their race' without having some sort of 'racist dogma' automatically being attached
There is probably an element of truth to that. I also think that the "attack the majority" and "exalt the minority" paradigm has infiltrated our culture and that it can be just as harmful as white racial privilege.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish
...far as I'm concerned, I have never had a problem with whites being proud of themselves...what DOES frost my wings is when said expression of pride is followed closely by a sneering diatribe asserting white racial superiority over minorities, as happens much to often...
And that is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish
I'll also concur with you on your point that there is a serious difference in what the races can 'get away with'
Your position is a common position rooted in the EMOTIONAL model and not the LOGICAL model. The emotional model that you are upholding is the model that PRESERVES the traditional socioeconomic hierarchy of which whites are on top and do much better than blacks. Calls for a color-blind society, at this juncture, is simply a call to prevent the linear equation from being reconciled by giving to the other side what was given to the opposite side, which PRESERVES the inequality. Thus, no matter how you slice it, you are advocating the preservation of racial inequality….and I think you know it.
Now...where is the LOGICAL model that backs your EMOTIONAL theory?
You equate the complexities of human behavior and society to a simple algebra problem? And that is your intellectual and logical opus that explains away why my assertions are wrong? Sorry bub, I don't buy it. I firmly believe that you don't come to racial and social equality by giving advantages or preferences to anybody. That is just irrational. All it does is breed enmity and tension.
So, when do we subtract the 10 from the other side and bring the equation back into balance? Will the left side gladly give up the 10 when the time is right...or will they clamor for more or greater variables?
You equate the complexities of human behavior and society to a simple algebra problem? And that is your intellectual and logical opus that explains away why my assertions are wrong? Sorry bub, I don't buy it. I firmly believe that you don't come to racial and social equality by giving advantages or preferences to anybody. That is just irrational. All it does is breed enmity and tension.
So, when do we subtract the 10 from the other side and bring the equation back into balance? Will the left side gladly give up the 10 when the time is right...or will they clamor for more or greater variables?
No….math is TOTALLY RATIONAL. It is your position that is irrational, but you will not admit it. In no mathematical model does what you say compute. What you are telling me is this. Blacks getting racial preference will upset whites and hence it should not be done. Yet, it’s OK that blacks are upset and left with the unequal legacy of centuries of white preference and favoritism. So it’s acceptable that blacks are upset….but not acceptable for whites to be upset for being disfavored. Furthermore, the reason whites are upset is born from the same reason whites favored their own in the decades prior. They created the inequality and your job is to preserve the inequality and that is why you get UPSET at the thought of anything being done to reconcile the inequality.
Just out of curiosity, if there was a course designed to promote white pride……what could it possibly include that whites are not currently being taught? Afrocentric teachings include people and history that are excluded from traditional curricula. So I am just wondering what NEW information would would be taught in a white centered curriculum.
I don't know the answer to the problem. There may not be a correct annswer. But here is the problem; One of the prime reasons for there to be a reason for Afrocentric schools is that blacks supposedly do better academically when in an environment with other blacks. Whites would also do better in an environment consisting of only whites. So one of the prime reasons we would have Afrocentric schools, is the same reason we would have Euro-centric schools. (Not that it is technically significant, but in a few decades whites will no longer have a majority of the population) So, now we have segregation in our schools based on achieving optimum peformance in the classroom.
I suspect there's no serious data to substantiate your supposition. The demographic population of the Moderator cut: link removed, demonstrate that populations of all black or all white students do not guarantee success. Some of the worst schools in the country are black urban and white rural schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith
The next question is, Do we have segregated colleges and universities? I would think we would, for the same reason we have segregated city schools. After years of segregated classrooms in our city schools, it might be almost necessary to have segregated universities. Do we then have segregated intern programs and apprenticeships? The list potentially goes on and on and permeates all of society.
So, the bottomline question is, Do we really want to reestablish school segregation? Like I said, I don't know the answer, but it is something that has to be considered long and hard before initiating.
You are implying, unsuccessfully, that the simple act of implementing an Afrocentric curriculum translates to segregation. A school with either an Afrocentric or Eurocentric curricula does not bar any race from participation. Some public school curricula focus on math and science, or fine arts and music. Children wanting to focus their education in a particular direction seek out these schools. No such public institution discriminates based on race, religion, or creed.
Again, I do not see any issue with a school that chooses an Afrocentric or Eurocentric curricula, since all interested parties are able to participate.
Some of our major private institutions that tout their Irish and African heritage aren't even segregated. Notre Dame, a historically white university, had a black valedictorian this year. Whereas Morehouse, a historically black college, had a white valedictorian a few years ago.
I simply do not understand your concern that this nation is en-route to segregation, especially in public schools. I find the entire premise baseless.
What you are telling me is this. Blacks getting racial preference will upset whites and hence it should not be done.
your job is to preserve the inequality and that is why you get UPSET at the thought of anything being done to reconcile the inequality.
I don't give a **** about what upsets whites or blacks. I want a completely fair, equal and colorblind society. Favoritism and special treatment (no matter how well-intentioned) is not the answer. It is just as bad as what came before it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Yet, it’s OK that blacks are upset and left with the unequal legacy of centuries of white preference and favoritism.
That is in the past. I don't see any black people being locked out of elite institutions or high-paying professions. I don't see black people being discriminated against in any meaningful way. I don't see black people being denied any avenue that they wish to take. Is there low-level racism between the races? Yes, in some instances. But, is it affecting the quality of life and opportunities of individuals and communities like it used to? No. It's time to put the past in the past and stop whining about this stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Just out of curiosity, if there was a course designed to promote white pride……what could it possibly include that whites are not currently being taught?
You are missing my point. I am not against learning about different cultures. I am not saying that euro-centric things are missing from our society. What I am saying is that I am against the double standard that exists where the minority is allowed to be proud of and proclaim their skin color and heritage, but a white person would not be able to get away with the same.
I had to sit through many university lectures about evil white colonizers, but I digress.
There were benevolent colonizers? How does one teach the history of the world from the 15th thru 20th century without discussing the rapacious history of imperialism which were the cause of centuries of warfare up to and including WWII? Do you not think that such a lesson would be of critical importance to those of European origin?
Quote:
There is no component of racial pride in euro-centric things and if there was the P.C. police would be out in full force.
You really should have stayed in school so that you could have learned how to make a substantiated argument instead of relying on conjecture, supposition.
As I stated before, I sense no shortage of university level courses in Western civilization, European art, literature, or music, nor have I sensed a paucity of museums, institutes or organizations dedicated to its promotion.
Quote:
I point you to my hypothetical question above: Have a black guy and a white guy go on TV and express pride in their racial heritage. How will both be received?
I think that if a black or white guy went on TV and sat their discussion their pride in their heritage without concrete examples, it would be a rather boring programs and condemned, rightfully so, to the public access channel. But as I keep stating and you keep ignoring, if some white guy got on T.V and waxed poetically about his pride in Irish literature folks would be more interested in the literature that he was promoting than the fact that as an Irish American he was proud of this Irish achievement. When an Italian American historian gets on T.V. and gets all gooey eyed when discussing the contribution of Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni to the world of art, NOBODY, is going to stand up and rant about the racial tensions caused by Italians for presenting a well thought out program about Michelangelo's statue David!
Get your head out of your bitterness, look around and see just how absurd your premise is. Go to a local art museum, take in an opera or a ballet and then come back and tell me about folks being silent about expressions of Eurocentric pride.
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Okay...Fair Enough
