Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The wind turbine industry exists solely because the Feds subsidize them. Those subsidies are due to expire soon. Watch for the turbines to go offline.
The Greenies will respond that the Feds also subsidize Big Oil. Answer: BS. That's a $Trillion dollar industry and oil depletion allowance only saves them $1 Billion /yr-- less than 0.1% in benefits.
Yeah, great. Let's defend the oil industry on the Green Living forum.
Would actually make more sense, economically AND "green-ish"
Big Wind has been so (over, at this point) built due to some of the out-fall from Recovery.gov Grants and the Investment Tax Credit (2.2 cents per kWh) -- which for some dumb reason, only Wind got -- not Solar (hmmmm.) The Recovery.gov grants run through the end of this year.
Local Power Production for Local Power Consumption (like you are saying) is the Best for all practical purposes. A cluster of Small Local Renewable -- sometimes called a Micro Grid -- can stand alone, and has no losses or Transmission Costs. Various Local Micro Grids can tie together and give each "back-up" and then tie-in to larger Grids for either sending or receiving power, depending on local site conditions.
(notice there was NO Big Wind in any of that).
Big Wind seems to be well-suited for some industrial processes -- e.g., making Hydrogen, Pumping / Cleaning Water, along with General Purpose for Spring and Fall, especially at night (those are when the wind blows best).
My personal thinking is that using Wind to generate electricity is a TOTAL waste of effort. Our electric grid is too vulnerable (solar flares, EMPs) as it is PLUS electricity cannot be stored cheaply currently. Use Wind to compress air and store or electrolysis to generate Hydrogen.
My personal thinking is that using Wind to generate electricity is a TOTAL waste of effort. Our electric grid is too vulnerable (solar flares, EMPs) as it is PLUS electricity cannot be stored cheaply currently. Use Wind to compress air and store or electrolysis to generate Hydrogen.
Because those solutions are significantly more expensive that grid supplied electricity.
Because those solutions are significantly more expensive that grid supplied electricity.
DCForever o you realize just how vulnerable our nations electric grid is? In 2003(?) a tree branch fell across a power line and the cascading failure blacked out most of the Norh East United States and parts of Canada's electricity for a while. A huge Solar flare or even worse an EMP attack could shut down the country. Many top military experts say this is a bigger threat than Chemical/Biological/Nuclear weapons. A good book on the subject is ONE SECOND AFTER.
Is cheap electricity CHEAP when it is so vulnerable to attack?
A reliable source under any circumstances would be a better bargain IMHO.
DCForever o you realize just how vulnerable our nations electric grid is? In 2003(?) a tree branch fell across a power line and the cascading failure blacked out most of the Norh East United States and parts of Canada's electricity for a while. A huge Solar flare or even worse an EMP attack could shut down the country. Many top military experts say this is a bigger threat than Chemical/Biological/Nuclear weapons. A good book on the subject is ONE SECOND AFTER.
Is cheap electricity CHEAP when it is so vulnerable to attack?
A reliable source under any circumstances would be a better bargain IMHO.
Not speaking for DC, but we are both EE(s) (Electrical Engineers) who work at Grid Level and Generation Level.
There are several well-known "fixes" on the observations you are making. Not saying they are not valid and known "Achilles Heels." There are also a few others not listed, but I would discourage too much of this discussion on the open Intertoobs, not that they are secret, but why fuel problems.
Speaking to your particular observations:
Tree Branch -- A "Cascade" failure. Yes that is correct. But fortunately when this type stuff happens we learn -- what we sometimes describe as "If you cannot be a good example, perhaps you can be a cautionary tale." Under the various NERC (National Electric Reliability Council) layers we are now required to update and review all models and real world systems when they have an update. This is good, because under what we call "Coordination," we now have to confirm and test that systems will NOT Cascade. Lower systems are required to drop FIRST, sort of stopping and limiting a failure before it spread upward through the system.
Huge Solar Flare (or EMP) -- true, sort of. This type surge -- if it does kick various relays and open circuits can be reset as soon as the outage is confirmed and cleared. It can be mitigated by various shielding, multiple back-ups and even simple underground feeders.
Cheap v. Reliability -- Yes, indeed. In most locations that are deemed important, we have various levels of back-up. Often dual (or more) sources (two different grid attachments and two different transformers) along with one or more generator, and on and on. These standards are set at the lowest levels by the NEC (National Electric Code) and local authorities, and work their way for various Commercial, Government and Military standards.
================
Personally, one major set of improvements I would like to see on the commercial grid is more (and more and more) Underground for feeders (they are rated for wet applications), Elevation (on Concrete) and Guarding of Transformers, and Loop (two-ended) feeds for Distribution v. Radial (dead ends) feeds.
Over time, this would lead to much less Tree and Overhead conflicts, as well as safer systems.
The wind turbine industry exists solely because the Feds subsidize them. Those subsidies are due to expire soon. Watch for the turbines to go offline.
The Greenies will respond that the Feds also subsidize Big Oil. Answer: BS. That's a $Trillion dollar industry and oil depletion allowance only saves them $1 Billion /yr-- less than 0.1% in benefits.
Incorrect. Wind energy is the cheapest source of electricity and costs go down by the year.
DCForever o you realize just how vulnerable our nations electric grid is? In 2003(?) a tree branch fell across a power line and the cascading failure blacked out most of the Norh East United States and parts of Canada's electricity for a while. A huge Solar flare or even worse an EMP attack could shut down the country. Many top military experts say this is a bigger threat than Chemical/Biological/Nuclear weapons. A good book on the subject is ONE SECOND AFTER.
Is cheap electricity CHEAP when it is so vulnerable to attack?
A reliable source under any circumstances would be a better bargain IMHO.
I'm an electrical engineer who spend a career working for electric utilities. The transmission grid in the United States is extraordinarily reliable. You are absolutely wrong about your description of the 2003 East Coast disruption. Here's New York's account.
Please don't read sensational books aimed for the lay public. They will just keep you up at night.
Electrical outages are 99.999999% associated with problems on the distribution lines, not the grid.
I'm all for wind (and solar), but is wind power really the cheapest? My skeptic sense is tingling.
Traditional Math generally comes out with Big Dam Hydro is the cheapest.
Once the Concrete is in, it is there for 100 years (or more).
Zero Fuel Costs.
Maybe needs mechanical and electrical repairs/upgrades on a 25 year basis or so.
============
Big Wind:
If you count the 30% Recovery.gov Treasure Grants (end this year) AND the 2.2 cents per kWh Investment Tax Credit that Big Wind gets, it may be in the range of Hydro.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
