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Old 07-28-2014, 10:40 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,913,524 times
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A couple of things...

Any ammunition / weapon combination that is suitable for self defense is going to have lots of lethality left over after passing through several interior walls. Bickering over .223 vs. 9mm vs. #4 buckshot and their relative overpenetration merits/demerits is, in my opinion, myopic hair splitting.

A shotgun is ideal in many ways for home defense and you can get into a basic pump-action for considerably less money than most of the value handguns. By way of illustration, a new-in-the-box Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 will be roughly half the price of a Glock 19.

A handgun is ALSO ideal in many ways for home defense.

An AR15 isn't ideal in many ways. Especially for someone who is a rank greenhorn with regard to firearms in general.

About birdshot: It's objectively better to have ammunition, like #4 thru .000 buck, that is designed to efficiently kill 200 pound animals for home defense than it is to PLAN on using any birdshot as a defensive round... But if that's all you have then you can DEFINITELY kill a mofo with it in a pinch. Of course, if all you have is birdshot then your shotgun probably has a 28 inch barrel and probably has at least an improved cylinder choke in it and there isn't going to be THAT MUCH difference between a slug, a load of buckshot and a load of birdshot at ranges inside of 10 yards. (Yes, I read that whole shotgunworld thread with birdshot and ballistics gelatin... But ballistics gelatin isn't skin, fat, muscle, bone and blood. You will get penetration sufficient to kill at close range pretty much regardless of what shotgun ammunition you are using)

Please note that I am STILL advocating that anyone keeping a shotgun for home defense should have buckshot.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:12 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,632,881 times
Reputation: 2659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
A couple of things...

Any ammunition / weapon combination that is suitable for self defense is going to have lots of lethality left over after passing through several interior walls. Bickering over .223 vs. 9mm vs. #4 buckshot and their relative overpenetration merits/demerits is, in my opinion, myopic hair splitting.

A shotgun is ideal in many ways for home defense and you can get into a basic pump-action for considerably less money than most of the value handguns. By way of illustration, a new-in-the-box Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 will be roughly half the price of a Glock 19.

A handgun is ALSO ideal in many ways for home defense.

An AR15 isn't ideal in many ways. Especially for someone who is a rank greenhorn with regard to firearms in general.

About birdshot: It's objectively better to have ammunition, like #4 thru .000 buck, that is designed to efficiently kill 200 pound animals for home defense than it is to PLAN on using any birdshot as a defensive round... But if that's all you have then you can DEFINITELY kill a mofo with it in a pinch. Of course, if all you have is birdshot then your shotgun probably has a 28 inch barrel and probably has at least an improved cylinder choke in it and there isn't going to be THAT MUCH difference between a slug, a load of buckshot and a load of birdshot at ranges inside of 10 yards. (Yes, I read that whole shotgunworld thread with birdshot and ballistics gelatin... But ballistics gelatin isn't skin, fat, muscle, bone and blood. You will get penetration sufficient to kill at close range pretty much regardless of what shotgun ammunition you are using)

Please note that I am STILL advocating that anyone keeping a shotgun for home defense should have buckshot.
An unobstructed shot with birdshot to the sternum at close range is pretty much a death sentence and would be spectacularly effective, but, take a look at me:


Check out how much of my vitals I am covering with things that would disperse or stop birdshot that buckshot would have very good odds of continuing through to do the job?

Now, it's very possible that who you are shooting may look like me---some guy pointing their own weapon in your direction. I mean, you aren't shooting someone who's backed up against a wall with their hands out "Just because you're in my house", I would hope. In some states, you can, legally, but there are always repercussions for these actions, in or out of court, but that's another thread.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:22 PM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,048,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
A couple of things...

Any ammunition / weapon combination that is suitable for self defense is going to have lots of lethality left over after passing through several interior walls. Bickering over .223 vs. 9mm vs. #4 buckshot and their relative overpenetration merits/demerits is, in my opinion, myopic hair splitting.

A shotgun is ideal in many ways for home defense and you can get into a basic pump-action for considerably less money than most of the value handguns. By way of illustration, a new-in-the-box Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 will be roughly half the price of a Glock 19.

A handgun is ALSO ideal in many ways for home defense.

An AR15 isn't ideal in many ways. Especially for someone who is a rank greenhorn with regard to firearms in general.

About birdshot: It's objectively better to have ammunition, like #4 thru .000 buck, that is designed to efficiently kill 200 pound animals for home defense than it is to PLAN on using any birdshot as a defensive round... But if that's all you have then you can DEFINITELY kill a mofo with it in a pinch. Of course, if all you have is birdshot then your shotgun probably has a 28 inch barrel and probably has at least an improved cylinder choke in it and there isn't going to be THAT MUCH difference between a slug, a load of buckshot and a load of birdshot at ranges inside of 10 yards. (Yes, I read that whole shotgunworld thread with birdshot and ballistics gelatin... But ballistics gelatin isn't skin, fat, muscle, bone and blood. You will get penetration sufficient to kill at close range pretty much regardless of what shotgun ammunition you are using)

Please note that I am STILL advocating that anyone keeping a shotgun for home defense should have buckshot.
I think you have it backwards. AR's are much easier to shoot for a rank amateur then either a shotgun or a pistol. Much much easier. Less recoil, follow up shots are way easier to put on target, they are light, stable... the list goes on. Pistols take way more skill to shoot under duress, particularly to put quick follow up shots on target, shotguns have less capacity, more recoil and also have a slower follow up shot time.

Nothing wrong with a shotgun if you know what you are doing, but pistols really aren't a great home defense option. You have no conceal requirements, why limit yourself to a comparatively weak round, less capacity all wrapped up in a much less stable and harder to use package?
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:39 PM
 
Location: california
5,492 posts, read 4,593,440 times
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I was looking at what the Israeli gun laws were .
Pays to investigate.
Saw a picture of a school teacher and little children .
The teacher is carrying a rifle strapped on her shoulder .
That's taking responsibility for one's own security.
Hand guns are best in close quarters, but the tool is no good if you haven't the will to act.
And for the most part that's where it really counts.
Being able to shoot off the hip ,because most encounters one is being caught unawares and bushwhacked. the numbers are usually stacked against you, if you are frozen or afraid to act.
Paper targets are NOT practice.
Split seconds count . The criminal is going to choose the moment of attack you are least aware.
muscle memory must be built in living challenge, not casual hole punching.
Air soft warfare is close in some senses ,because you really see how vulnerable you are. ( be sure and use face protection)
An aggressor with a knife with in 21 feet , can take you before you can draw your gun and shoot.
Most cops miss most of the time in real fire fights .
Largely because they are playing canned training.
Not much different than a video game. Junk.
Food for thought .
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,538,119 times
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In answer to your question, a handgun is the most common weapon for self defense.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:10 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,913,524 times
Reputation: 1397
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
I think you have it backwards. AR's are much easier to shoot for a rank amateur then either a shotgun or a pistol. Much much easier. Less recoil, follow up shots are way easier to put on target, they are light, stable... the list goes on. Pistols take way more skill to shoot under duress, particularly to put quick follow up shots on target, shotguns have less capacity, more recoil and also have a slower follow up shot time.

Nothing wrong with a shotgun if you know what you are doing, but pistols really aren't a great home defense option. You have no conceal requirements, why limit yourself to a comparatively weak round, less capacity all wrapped up in a much less stable and harder to use package?
I don't see it that way. I see in my mind's eye someone who doesn't have a solid grasp on how the pully-handle thingy and the 30-second magazine clip work together, what to do when the brass bullet part only goes into that little hole in there part of the way because he didn't pull the pully-handle thingy back far enough, can't remember which way that switchy thing is supposed to point and, oh darn it, he pushed the dropper button on accident.

A revolver or even one of those polymer frames is very intuitive by comparison and fits pretty nicely in the bedside table drawer (and let's face it, pistols kill people just fine - I fully recognize that a rifle is a completely different energy class... but a pistol isn't exactly non-lethal). A shotgun, recoil machine though it may be, is also simple to operate by comparison. I'm sure I could teach any tri-delt or pi-phi that doesn't already know to shoot a 20 gauge Mossberg proficiently enough to defend herself a LOT faster than I could with an AR15.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:25 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,913,524 times
Reputation: 1397
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
An unobstructed shot with birdshot to the sternum at close range is pretty much a death sentence and would be spectacularly effective, but, take a look at me:


Check out how much of my vitals I am covering with things that would disperse or stop birdshot that buckshot would have very good odds of continuing through to do the job?

Now, it's very possible that who you are shooting may look like me---some guy pointing their own weapon in your direction. I mean, you aren't shooting someone who's backed up against a wall with their hands out "Just because you're in my house", I would hope. In some states, you can, legally, but there are always repercussions for these actions, in or out of court, but that's another thread.
I agree and want to reiterate that I'm not advocating that anyone PLAN on using birdshot for home defense... Just that it'll work in a pinch.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:36 PM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,048,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
I don't see it that way. I see in my mind's eye someone who doesn't have a solid grasp on how the pully-handle thingy and the 30-second magazine clip work together, what to do when the brass bullet part only goes into that little hole in there part of the way because he didn't pull the pully-handle thingy back far enough, can't remember which way that switchy thing is supposed to point and, oh darn it, he pushed the dropper button on accident.

A revolver or even one of those polymer frames is very intuitive by comparison and fits pretty nicely in the bedside table drawer (and let's face it, pistols kill people just fine - I fully recognize that a rifle is a completely different energy class... but a pistol isn't exactly non-lethal). A shotgun, recoil machine though it may be, is also simple to operate by comparison. I'm sure I could teach any tri-delt or pi-phi that doesn't already know to shoot a 20 gauge Mossberg proficiently enough to defend herself a LOT faster than I could with an AR15.
You ever seen a rank amateur fire a 9mm or above handgun? There might be less "switchy things" on them but even if they somehow manage to get a shot on target, they won't be getting a second one on target anytime soon. In contrast, the AR is so stable after firing that it's pretty easy to squeeze off another one and keep it more or less on target. I can shoot a AR with the butt resting on my nose, with a proper hold on the gun recoil and muzzle flip is nothing.

I was assuming that the rank amateur would take 5 minutes to learn what buttons do what, you know, the basic controls of the gun. There are only three to worry one self with, the safety, the mag release, and the bolt carrier handle. Oh and the bolt catch, thats good to know about.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:41 PM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,048,913 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
An unobstructed shot with birdshot to the sternum at close range is pretty much a death sentence and would be spectacularly effective, but, take a look at me:


Check out how much of my vitals I am covering with things that would disperse or stop birdshot that buckshot would have very good odds of continuing through to do the job?

Now, it's very possible that who you are shooting may look like me---some guy pointing their own weapon in your direction. I mean, you aren't shooting someone who's backed up against a wall with their hands out "Just because you're in my house", I would hope. In some states, you can, legally, but there are always repercussions for these actions, in or out of court, but that's another thread.
Yep, and even if the buckshot didn't make it through, it would destroy one or both of your arms, which is great for the attacker, not so good for you being able to fight back. Buckshot is really nasty.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:29 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,913,524 times
Reputation: 1397
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
You ever seen a rank amateur fire a 9mm or above handgun? There might be less "switchy things" on them but even if they somehow manage to get a shot on target, they won't be getting a second one on target anytime soon. In contrast, the AR is so stable after firing that it's pretty easy to squeeze off another one and keep it more or less on target. I can shoot a AR with the butt resting on my nose, with a proper hold on the gun recoil and muzzle flip is nothing.

I was assuming that the rank amateur would take 5 minutes to learn what buttons do what, you know, the basic controls of the gun. There are only three to worry one self with, the safety, the mag release, and the bolt carrier handle. Oh and the bolt catch, thats good to know about.
Sure. The first pistol my little wife ever fired was my Glock 21. First shot was a limp-wrist, the second and all of them after that weren't. She's not going to be REALLY ACCURATE if she has to suppress a terrorist fire team, but she can put 13 rounds within a pie plate of center mass with a couple of fliers very quickly inside of 10 yards .

Even with a carbine length rifle, she just doesn't fit on an AR15 all that well and isn't comfortable with it. She hunts with her shotgun, though.
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