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I mean medical, from a standpoint that their gender is wrong, not as in mental health.
Well, that is mental health. The mind thinks the body should be different.
If it were "medical" and I think you mean "physical" in this case, that's a physical problem, then the body would somehow overpower the mind to match it. In which case the person would be who they were supposed to be. But the body itself is not a medical problem. It's a body.
Look into John Money. Anyone who discusses transgenderism should know the origin of the modern use of the word. Have a wastebasket nearby to vomit though. His "research" made me very upset and angry.
So you believe that obesity and other issues that would make an implantable device necessary are NOT medical conditions?
You need to compare like to like. So obesity, transgerdism and conditions that require implantable devices are ALL medical conditions that need psychiatric services and surgery, or NONE of them are. Which is it?
Since transgenderism is the only cosmetic surgery -- and tubal ligation falls under birth control, a fully recognized medical procedure, it is not cosmetic unless someone is looking at your organs??? -- WHY does it need medical psychiatric services?
If transgenderism is not a disease it should not need a year of psychiatric counseling BEFORE surgery. I mean, they are perfectly healthy and emotionally and mentally stable, per your multiple posts, correct?
So why the forced pysch consult? For someone who is --according to you -- mentally healthy and who wants cosmetic surgery?
So they should just walk in to a surgeon, ask for it and it's a done deal. You are avoiding the direct question at all costs with nonsense replies. Sorry, you're the one dancing, as you don't understand the difference between medically recognized surgery and cosmetic.
Mentally healthy people can handle "social mindfields" whatever that means. Mentally ill people cannot, which is why they NEED PSYCH HELP.
Cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics.
I did not say those were not medical issues. Again, you asked for examples where people who plan to have surgery would be advised to have a psychiatric consultation. I provided two: people having bariatric surgery and people seeking implantable devices for pain control. There is no implication that any of those people are mentally ill. The discussion, as for those going through gender transition, is whether the person has realistic expectations for the planned treatment. It is comparing "like to like".
Again, you have the delusion that everyone who sees a shrink must be crazy. That is absolutely not true.
This sentence makes no sense. I have no idea what you think you are saying:
"Since transgenderism is the only cosmetic surgery -- and tubal ligation falls under birth control, a fully recognized medical procedure, it is not cosmetic unless someone is looking at your organs??? -- WHY does it need medical psychiatric services?"
I never said having a tubal ligation involved a psych consult. It will involve a discussion of the issue of regretting having done. I gave it as an example of a procedure that is not medically necessary being covered by insurance.
Despite your claim that you are "empathetic" it is obvious you have no clue what the social minefield that a transgender person faces is like. It includes people like you who insist that gender dysphoria is a mental illness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice
Unless of course you now believe it *is* a medical condition and that is why you are comparing it to other medical conditions?
Either it is medical condition that needs medical professionals (like a psychiatrist) or it is NOT a medical condition and they should be able to get surgery just by requesting it.
Basic question, last time:
If transgerderism is not a mental illness and all transgenders are 100% mentally healthy and need no psychiatric or counseling services because it is not a mental disease: Why do they need one year of psychiatric care before cosmetic surgery is permitted? Medical psychiatric care for cosmetic surgery. Why?
You are still shifting the goalposts. I never said a transgender person does not need medical care. I said that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. The ongoing psychiatric support is for the entire transition process, not just sex reassignment surgery.
Obviously, there are medical procedures involved, including hormones and whatever the transgendered person decides as far as surgery is concerned - and not all even have surgery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice
Actually, no she has not. "Social mindfield" is not a medical condition, unlike obesity or needing an implantable medical device.
She has compared people with two separate sets of recognized and treatable medical conditions where patients are referred to psychological counseling as an adjunct to medical treatment to something where there is no medical condition/no treatment needed and yet people must have psych help for a YEAR before cosmetic surgery.
Read that sentence again. And again.
It's apples and oranges. You cannot compare the two scenarios. It's a logical fallacy. Take it to any HS English teacher.
I am not set in any opinion. My opinions change when truth and facts are put forth. I am looking for truthful debate and logic. She hasn't provided it.
You are the one who was unaware that it is not uncommon for people to have a psych consult before surgery. Now that you have been told differently you are scrambling to try to make it seem as if someone who is seeing a shrink to help with issues related to gender transition must be mentally ill but those who see a shrink before getting bariatric surgery or an implantable pain device are not.
The fallacy here lies in your assumption that anyone who sees a shrink is "mentally ill".
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice
Actually Suzy was saying that. Repeatedly, that they are mentally healthy and the only reason they need psych consult is to help them with the social minefield. That transgenderism s not a medical condition.
I absolutely believe that it is a medical condition and they need help. So WE -- you and me -- actually agree.
And this is an area where my opinion completely changed, after reading, researching, writing and interviewing transgenders. I went from a very typical liberal stance to one who can see how badly they have been taken advantage of and used for political gain, and they are not getting the help they need. It's very, very sad.
Look into John Money, a sexologist who created the modern usage of the word "gender" and experimented with children. The word "gender" didn't exist in this manner until the 1950s/1960s. Before that it was a way to refer to language/word endings (amigo/amiga). He also falsified research, yet somehow it still is the basis for the idea that "gender" is an actuality. It's troubling at best, and at its worst it is sick child sexual abuse, the experiments that he did, and he should have been put in jail.
If you really want to learn more about gender, you must read about John Money. Otherwise you have no idea what the foundation of the arguments are.
I never said that transgender folks do not have medical concerns. I said they are not mentally ill. Please keep that straight. Yes, they need help for medical issues. That does not mean they are mentally ill and can be treated with psychiatric medications or therapy to reverse their gender identity.
The concept of gender existed well before Money, as have transgendered persons.
How did Money "experiment with children"? What research did he falsify?
I suspect that you are referring to the child born male who had surgery and was reared as female after a complication of circumcision. As an adult that child regretted what had been done and ultimately committed suicide. Was that an "experiment" or an attempt to help a child with a devastating genital injury?
It seems you consider yourself an expert on gender dysphoria. Sorry, I somehow doubt, based on what you have written here, that you have "inteviewed" many transgender people.
The best way to get them "the help they need" is to stop insisting they are mentally ill and start accepting them as people with a gender identity that differs from your concept of what gender is .
Why would a mentally healthy individual -- as some here are claiming that transgenders are mentally healthy -- need to see a psychiatrist for a year in order to qualify for surgery? What other surgery needs a note from a psychiatrist to approve it? From what has been posted in this thread, they only seek counseling for depression/anxiety. Yet, there are no surgeries to cure depression/anxiety. So how can a psychiatrist approve a surgery for an ailment that apparently does not exist and has no diagnosis (transgender)?
If surgery is MEDICALLY necessary, and transgender is not a medical diagnosis, then aren't hormones and surgery purely for cosmetic? Since it's not a health issue, and they are simply *misunderstood* there is no MEDICAL reason for any treatment.
Why is cosmetic surgery that has no medical reason associated with it (unlike, say reconstruction for breast cancer patients), since according to some transgenders are perfectly mentally healthy -- why is it covered by MEDICAL insurance? It's not needed because there are no health issues to treat.
Either it's a medical condition that needs treatment or it's cosmetic wanted by a mentally healthy individual. Pick one. Logic states that they can't both be true.
It is in fact a medical condition, that needs treatment. The following are Anthem's (my insurance co) guidelines for treatment.
Blah, blah, blah.......many people really just don't care! It doesn't impact their lives directly so who cares? Lots of folks aren't watching tv shows where it was added. I don't watch tv shows about children. Bruce Jenner is just trying to stay in the limelight.....he lost the Kardashian cash cow. I have no clue about basketball and NC....don't watch basketball and I don't live anywhere near NC. They can do what they want with their bathrooms. We'll just call everyone it so no one is offended.....people are offended by everything today.
Jenner doesn't need the Kardashian cash cow. He's actually the richest one of the bunch. Or at least used to be. $150 Million and counting. And that was before all the $$$ generated by his books and appearances and reality show as a transgender.
It's apples and oranges. You cannot compare the two scenarios. It's a logical fallacy. Take it to any HS English teacher.
To be honest, and this isn't a slight against HS English teachers (mine was awesome), but HS English teachers generally don't know a damn thing about neurobiology, which is what we're talking about here.
You've already ignored this, but I'm posting it again.
Quote:
Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker. Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.
Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psychogenic or biological aetiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.
So you believe that obesity and other issues that would make an implantable device necessary are NOT medical conditions?
You need to compare like to like. So obesity, transgerdism and conditions that require implantable devices are ALL medical conditions that need psychiatric services and surgery, or NONE of them are. Which is it?
Since transgenderism is the only cosmetic surgery -- and tubal ligation falls under birth control, a fully recognized medical procedure, it is not cosmetic unless someone is looking at your organs??? -- WHY does it need medical psychiatric services?
If transgenderism is not a disease it should not need a year of psychiatric counseling BEFORE surgery. I mean, they are perfectly healthy and emotionally and mentally stable, per your multiple posts, correct?
So why the forced pysch consult? For someone who is --according to you -- mentally healthy and who wants cosmetic surgery?
So they should just walk in to a surgeon, ask for it and it's a done deal. You are avoiding the direct question at all costs with nonsense replies. Sorry, you're the one dancing, as you don't understand the difference between medically recognized surgery and cosmetic.
Mentally healthy people can handle "social mindfields" whatever that means. Mentally ill people cannot, which is why they NEED PSYCH HELP.
Cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics.
Haha - I knew you couldn't actually stay away for long...
There are some people who would sign up for about any kind of surgery or medical treatment out there...they may be hypochondriacs, malingerers, or have some other somatic disorder. Unfortunately, there are some conditions that cannot be unambiguously diagnosed through completely objective methods. For example, if pain is the main symptom and physically confirmed characteristics are not available. Therefore, self-report of symptoms is heavily relied upon - unfortunately doctors may not adequately vet these people and they might not really need the procedure.
Just because a subset of people erroneously profess to need a treatment does not deny the legitimacy of others' need for that very same procedure. If the procedure is highly invasive or has a high complication rate or is relatively irreversible there may be more of an attempt to evaluate someone on many levels, including mental capacity to help ensure these people don't slip through and have an unnecessary procedure or one that they may later regret that isn't easily reversed.
My sister has a knack for finding diseases that are difficult to unambiguously diagnose - she currently is being treated for multiple sclerosis and epilepsy. Lots of people legitimately have these diseases...I'm 99% certain my sister does not - too bad in her case there's not a psychiatric evaluation required but at least surgery is not a typical treatment for either. She'll live, just on unnecessary meds for as long as she wants to keep it up.
That's amazing. I am very happy that Anthem has such an enlightened approach to care for gender dysphoria.
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