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How can you say this? It was Germany that declared war on the US. Look at how long we put up with the sinking of our Merchant Marine ships. Heck, US companies were only trying to make money by selling supplies and goods.
That's the purpose of a navy...we fought many naval battles in the Pacific, not so many in the Atlantic. As far as selling supplies and goods, we could have sold them to both sides--capitalism at work.
That's the purpose of a navy...we fought many naval battles in the Pacific, not so many in the Atlantic. As far as selling supplies and goods, we could have sold them to both sides--capitalism at work.
The point was the Germans were sinking American trade ships before the US was in the war.
As for invading Japan. The Japanese would not have surrendered. This was well established at the time. The US dropped the bomb because it was the least costliest path to take as far as American lives were concerned. It is very easy to argue this about 65 years later, but I think you are looking at this with 21st century thinking. We know the dangers now of atomic/nuclear weapons, but in the 40's this was not a known issue.
Ask me about Afghanistan. I was there. You may not like the answer I'll give you.
That's the purpose of a navy...we fought many naval battles in the Pacific, not so many in the Atlantic. As far as selling supplies and goods, we could have sold them to both sides--capitalism at work.
The reason there were not many naval battles in the Atlantic was because by late 1942 the German surface fleet was either sunk or bottled up and rusting away (the guns were taken for use on the Eastern Front and the Atlantic Wall). Hitler never really trusted the Navy, anyway, except maybe the U-Boat arm. And Germany never really was a maritime nation, unlike the Japanese who became one after 1870 and went on a boat building binge in the 1920s and 30s.
TK, do you really believe that Nazi Germany was a benevolent nation which, if victorious in Europe, and in concert with Japan would have left us alone and not slowly turned the US into somewhat of a vassal state after it had the riches of Russia and the French and British Empires available?
The reason there were not many naval battles in the Atlantic was because by late 1942 the German surface fleet was either sunk or bottled up and rusting away (the guns were taken for use on the Eastern Front and the Atlantic Wall). Hitler never really trusted the Navy, anyway, except maybe the U-Boat arm. And Germany never really was a maritime nation, unlike the Japanese who became one after 1870 and went on a boat building binge in the 1920s and 30s.
TK, do you really believe that Nazi Germany was a benevolent nation which, if victorious in Europe, and in concert with Japan would have left us alone and not slowly turned the US into somewhat of a vassal state after it had the riches of Russia and the French and British Empires available?
Well, Germany's only access, as far as I know, is the North Sea. The biggest threat was the "wolf pack", the U-boats. Destroyers worked on sinking those.
I don't believe Germany under Hitler was a benevolent nation. I don't believe the U.S. to be a benevolent nation either, to be honest. Yet, I must insist that we are pretty well protected from invasion by having oceans on both sides of us, where we could see ships coming from miles away, and our Navy (and to a lesser extent, our Coast Guard) defending us on those oceans.
The only avenues for invasion are exploited by Canadian snowbirds and Mexican immigrants--many of them (the latter, not the former) illegals. And I don't see us putting a stop to it, although we could do so--by cunning placement of our military forces.
The point was the Germans were sinking American trade ships before the US was in the war.
As for invading Japan. The Japanese would not have surrendered. This was well established at the time. The US dropped the bomb because it was the least costliest path to take as far as American lives were concerned. It is very easy to argue this about 65 years later, but I think you are looking at this with 21st century thinking. We know the dangers now of atomic/nuclear weapons, but in the 40's this was not a known issue.
Ask me about Afghanistan. I was there. You may not like the answer I'll give you.
Really? Others have stated that we dropped the bomb because Japan was getting ready to surrender to the Russians--so if that doesn't indicate that they were ready to surrender, I don't know what else could.
The Japanese cabinet meeting over the night of August 9-10 was deadlocked with six in favor of surrender under certain conditions, three to fight on until after the final battle had shown Japan's will, and with five neutral members. Issues discussed that night were: that the Emperor must remain, that Japan must disarm her own troops and not surrender arms to a foreign power, and that Japan must try her own war criminals. Word came during the meeting that a second city had been destroyed by atomic attack. The meeting was moved to an audience with the Emperor who listened to the arguments on both sides and concluded that the time had come to "bear the unbearable". The Emperor had no direct authority other than the loyalty of those who would listen to him.
The army felt that the troops must keep fighting and broadcast this announcement : "We shall fight on to the bitter end, ever firm in our faith that we shall find life in death . . . and surge forward to destroy the arrogant enemy." The peace side decided to counteract the martial effect of that news release with an announcement of their own. This was for several reasons. The government sponsored news agency was in Morse code only and not covered by military censorship, it would speed the receipt of the Japanese offer going through diplomatic channels and could possibly postpone destruction of another city, and it was hoped that rejoicing created among the allies by an end to the war would make them unable to reject Japan's counter offer. On the morning of the 11th, the army was furious, but did not resort to violence. That evening the Emperor agreed to broadcast to the nation on acceptance of the offer.
The stern Allied response, written by the Americans and approved by the Allies, was also released by radio news to let Japan know under what terms the agreement was accepted. It was received about midnight August 11-12, eighteen hours before the diplomatic note. As word spread within the government, about midnight of the 13th, a plea was made to commit twenty million lives (kamikaze) to victory. On the morning of the 14th Allied leaflets erased the secrecy of the negotiations. Noon on the 14th saw another imperial conference in which the three military leaders in the cabinet spoke for rejection. The Emperor considered the Allied response to be acceptable. The cabinet met immediately after and endorsed the Emperor's wishes, thereby making the acceptance legal. By three in the afternoon, the government Morse code station announced that an "acceptance will be forthcoming soon." The Allies stopped attacks and went on alert status.
A coup attempt was to be expected. Insurgents assassinated the commander of the Imperial Guards and issued orders under his name, but the insurrection was put down by morning. Separately, the War Minister committed suicide. Also overnight, the Emperor recorded his address to the nation which was broadcast at noon, 15 August. Wording was so carefully drafted, about saving innocent lives from a new and cruel bomb, that it was not immediately known that it meant full surrender. The cabinet resigned as a duty and an Imperial Prince was made premier.
As you can read from the Japanese communication after the bombs were dropped, they were still not willing to surrender. The Soviets involvement was an attack on a minimally defended Manchuria.
The Japanese cabinet meeting over the night of August 9-10 was deadlocked with six in favor of surrender under certain conditions, three to fight on until after the final battle had shown Japan's will, and with five neutral members. Issues discussed that night were: that the Emperor must remain, that Japan must disarm her own troops and not surrender arms to a foreign power, and that Japan must try her own war criminals. Word came during the meeting that a second city had been destroyed by atomic attack. The meeting was moved to an audience with the Emperor who listened to the arguments on both sides and concluded that the time had come to "bear the unbearable". The Emperor had no direct authority other than the loyalty of those who would listen to him.
The army felt that the troops must keep fighting and broadcast this announcement : "We shall fight on to the bitter end, ever firm in our faith that we shall find life in death . . . and surge forward to destroy the arrogant enemy." The peace side decided to counteract the martial effect of that news release with an announcement of their own. This was for several reasons. The government sponsored news agency was in Morse code only and not covered by military censorship, it would speed the receipt of the Japanese offer going through diplomatic channels and could possibly postpone destruction of another city, and it was hoped that rejoicing created among the allies by an end to the war would make them unable to reject Japan's counter offer. On the morning of the 11th, the army was furious, but did not resort to violence. That evening the Emperor agreed to broadcast to the nation on acceptance of the offer.
The stern Allied response, written by the Americans and approved by the Allies, was also released by radio news to let Japan know under what terms the agreement was accepted. It was received about midnight August 11-12, eighteen hours before the diplomatic note. As word spread within the government, about midnight of the 13th, a plea was made to commit twenty million lives (kamikaze) to victory. On the morning of the 14th Allied leaflets erased the secrecy of the negotiations. Noon on the 14th saw another imperial conference in which the three military leaders in the cabinet spoke for rejection. The Emperor considered the Allied response to be acceptable. The cabinet met immediately after and endorsed the Emperor's wishes, thereby making the acceptance legal. By three in the afternoon, the government Morse code station announced that an "acceptance will be forthcoming soon." The Allies stopped attacks and went on alert status.
A coup attempt was to be expected. Insurgents assassinated the commander of the Imperial Guards and issued orders under his name, but the insurrection was put down by morning. Separately, the War Minister committed suicide. Also overnight, the Emperor recorded his address to the nation which was broadcast at noon, 15 August. Wording was so carefully drafted, about saving innocent lives from a new and cruel bomb, that it was not immediately known that it meant full surrender. The cabinet resigned as a duty and an Imperial Prince was made premier.
As you can read from the Japanese communication after the bombs were dropped, they were still not willing to surrender. The Soviets involvement was an attack on a minimally defended Manchuria.
Better a that few hundred thousand Japanese died vs. the 20 million 'Kamikaze' over and beyond possibly a million Allied soldiers.
If we did not invade or occupy their country, that would have been nothing more than a useless gesture. And we did not have to either occupy OR invade their country. If a person has stopped trying to get up, you don't need him to say, "I give up--you win."
The Japanese never gave up until after we dropped two bombs. They met our troops at every island we landed on. What might have happened if we just ended the war without a surrender? I'm sure we would have ended up in another war with Japan within ten or twenty years. You need to look at the times this was going on. One of the reasons Japan and Germany were occupied was because they didn't want the same thing(another world war) to happen again. They only dealt with the first world war about twenty five years earlier. Look what Germany did in that time.
In answer to the original question of what would have happened if the U.S. didn't drop the Atomic bombs, we know what was in planning.
The actual invasion of Japan was scheduled for November and before that the British wanted to have a combined overland and Naval attack to take back Hong Kong. No one has mentioned this or the estimated casualties from that effort.
Bombing attacks on Taiwan and mainland China (occupied by Japanese forces) would have continued (Did you know that U.S. B-24's used napalm on an attack on Hong Kong's waterfront? Think of all the families living in sampans in the harbor that died.) destroying infrastructure and residents.
Korean and Chinese slave laborers would have kept on being worked to death.
The Japanese would have kept on clear-cutting Korea's forests for the turpentine for a motor-fuel substitute. ( Look at the photos of Korea from the 1950 war - no trees. Today Korea is beautiful.)
If the Soviet Army attacked it would have met stiffer resistance that it did when they invaded after the Bomb drop and the Japanese forces no longer had the religious belief in fighting until the end.
The Japanese people would have suffered further as they were not important to the high level military leaders.
If, in November 1945, the invasion took place a messy guerilla-type war would have been waged by the fanatical few while Allied forces gradually occupied towns fending off snipers and "terrorist" types. There would have been few pitched battles.
We would have built advanced air bases on the Southern Islands and continued the attacks from the air.
Remember, Japan is an Island country and the Allies had no reliable information about internal conditions politically or militarily. War goods were being produced in dispersed locations and even underground. U.S. troops did not see the "last ditch" rifles or wooden components on late war aircraft.
U.S. forces from Europe were being processed and refitted for the Pacific theater for the November invasion. Plans were made for a long protracted campaign across the Home Islands.
The distinctive nature of Atomic weaponry allowed the Japanese leadership to surrender without losing face.
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