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The flaw in citing this study, and thus the corresponding ranking, is that it includes transportation and focuses on relative income. I don't know if people realize but transportation is VERY expensive in Houston, especially when considering all 600 sq. miles. The article says that the average Houstonian spends 16 percent of their income on transportation. Granted, you may not have to drive long distances all the time, but having access to a motor vehicle gives more impetus to do so. If you factor in the upkeep along with fuel and initial cost of purchase, that's when things start to get really 'spensive. It's pretty staggering what people spend to get around here; however, most people have turned a blind eye, since a car is seen as a necessity. Not to mention, many people have to make more trips here because they have more kids than the average big city, so that means soccer games, PTO meetings, etc. The article also says 5 percent of Houstonians use public transportation. I'm always amazed too at the throngs of people who drive in to go to UH from areas as far as Spring nearly every day -- personally, it boggles me. To each their own though. I guess you could say Houston is cheap if you don't live like a Houstonian: house, car, and 2.5 kids.
But consider, even if someone is making minimum wage in NYC, for example, they'd still be spending less than 10% of their income on transportation to buy a monthly local subway and bus pass ($112) each month.
Affordability, thy name is not Houston - Houston Chronicle
"Philadelphia was the most affordable city based on those criteria, with 33 percent of household incomes going to housing and transit. New York ranked 4th with 37 percent and Chicago was 14th with 42 percent." Relative affordability may not be the best guide. Of course a person who's making 250K in Manhattan is not going to have a problem affording a studio thats $3,000 a month --add to that the programs for affordable housing.
And I'll point out the flaw in your logic having lived in NY. First of all, a majority of the people in the NY area DO have cars. Noticed I said area, we're talking about 15 million people in the 5 boroughs. And the people who live in the CORE of Manhattan or Brooklyn or Queens, guess what? Add taxi expenses. I probably spent $400 to $500 a month on taxis. Almost everyone and I mean everyone uses taxis in NY. Whether it's because you are coming home late from the bars, taking a taxi to the airport or maybe just buying a lot of stuff and you don't want to lug it around on the subway. Some people in NY have a car, pay for mass transit AND take taxis. Kawabunga! Yeah dude, there is no savings. You would have to live there to know that.
And I'll point out the flaw in your logic having lived in NY. First of all, a majority of the people in the NY area DO have cars. Noticed I said area, we're talking about 15 million people in the 5 boroughs. And the people who live in the CORE of Manhattan or Brooklyn or Queens, guess what? Add taxi expenses. I probably spent $400 to $500 a month on taxis. Almost everyone and I mean everyone uses taxis in NY. Whether it's because you are coming home late from the bars, taking a taxi to the airport or maybe just buying a lot of stuff and you don't want to lug it around on the subway. Some people in NY have a car, pay for mass transit AND take taxis. Kawabunga! Yeah dude, there is no savings. You would have to live there to know that.
Well all the years I lived in Boston, I went down to the city at least once a month, often for weeks a time, so I'm not completely oblivious. We're talking about in the past 6 years, and I'm not sure when you left.
The study covers the city only, not the suburbs. The study explicitly covers transportation expenses, so that would most likely include taxis. Plus, $4-500 is kind of excessive. I know for a fact my friends don't spend that much. Did you live far away? If you were to make a more supportable argument, you'd have to question whether parking fees were included - that may not have totally been taken into account - and they are ridiculous. So that falls under methodology.
In any case, think other peoples' experiences are different. Poor people ain't takin' taxis and we love to talk about those people. Most of my friends don't take taxis, at least not these days and they only take one when they absolutely have to get somewhere fast. They might take a bike, though they might be less likely to in the winter. A lot of people I know take the M60 or the A train, much earlier than they need to be there, even though its super crowded. If they need something, they need to buy something big, they use Zip Car. I think a lot more tourists or business-folk take taxis. My city friends are hipster bohemians, I guess. Then again, I have friends in North Jersey, Long Island, and Westchester, so their situations are a bit different.
Again, the whole time I've been arguing that NYC is much more expensive, just as you have, but I think this is one of the cases where NYC may be cheaper, in terms of the average resident, which is what the study covers. However, I do question how it could come out cheaper overall, which is why I bolded that portion.
Kawabunga, dude!
Last edited by theSUBlime; 11-14-2013 at 09:23 PM..
Well all the years I lived in Boston, I went down to the city at least once a month, often for weeks a time, so I'm not completely oblivious. We're talking about in the past 6 years, and I'm not sure when you left.
The study covers the city only, not the suburbs. The study explicitly covers transportation expenses, so that would most likely include taxis. Plus, $4-500 is kind of excessive. I know for a fact my friends don't spend that much. Did you live far away? If you were to make a more supportable argument, you'd have to question whether parking fees were included - that may not have totally been taken into account - and they are ridiculous. So that falls under methodology.
In any case, think other peoples' experiences are different. Poor people ain't takin' taxis and we love to talk about those people. Most of my friends don't take taxis, at least not these days and they only take one when they absolutely have to get somewhere fast. They might take a bike, though they might be less likely to in the winter. A lot of people I know take the M60 or the A train, much earlier than they need to be there, even though its super crowded. If they need something, they need to buy something big, they use Zip Car. I think a lot more tourists or business-folk take taxis. My city friends are hipster bohemians, I guess. Then again, I have friends in North Jersey, Long Island, and Westchester, so their situations are a bit different.
Again, the whole time I've been arguing that NYC is much more expensive, just as you have, but I think this is one of the cases where NYC may be cheaper, in terms of the average resident, which is what the study covers. However, I do question how it could come out cheaper overall, which is why I bolded that portion.
Kawabunga, dude!
OK, so I will give you a "real" example with some real numbers. I lived in Hoboken for a year, a pretty popular area for the post college 20-something crowd that did NOT want to spend 4k a month for a one bedroom walkup in Manhattan. So here's the deal. If you are in the city drinking doing whatever whether a weeknight or weekend, the last PATH train out of 34th street station was 1:15 am to Hoboken. If you missed it, and most of us did, you had to take a taxi home, which we did. The taxis's then, this was over 10 years ago, charged a flat fee of $45 from Manhattan to Hoboken. So even if you only went out on weekends and only once a week did you stay late, that alone comes out to $180 a month. Plus once you got to Manhattan you took taxi's everywhere. Yes, I agree you can slum it and when I first moved there, I did. But sooner or later dude you're going to want to get laid. I mean come on, you take a nice girl out on the town and she is all dressed up, she is NOT going to want sit in a subway tunnel at 1am with the smell of urine and homeless bums laid out across the benches. Get a cab dude and treat her right. LOL. Not to mention when it's 15 degrees outside and a foot of snow on the ground. "Hey honey, it's only 4 blocks to the Delancey station where we will wait 20 minutes for a train to get the 456 at Beaker St where we will wait another 20 minutes for the mid town train." LOL.
Yead dude, if your single and frugal and slumming it, sure you can live on the edges. But buddy, let me tell you something, and I speak as someone who did that for awhile, it gets really old really fast. Yeah your buddies might be slumming it, but once you have a decent job you are not going to live like that. You are going to take taxis. You are not going to sit in the cold for a bus or train. And btw, after 10 pm at night, the trains do NOT come that often. They run on 30 to 45 minute schedules.
Look, I loved NY OK. I had a great time there. But I'm speaking the truth here. It's fun when you are 22. It's fun when you kind of have this I don't care attitude. But as you get older, you start to care. And as you get older, it's not as fun. Things start to get to you. You start to pay up for convenience. Sure I could live on those 1.50 slices of NY pizza you could get at 2am on any street corner. But heart disease is not as cool now as it was in my 20's. LOL. I rather pay up for good food. I rather take the taxi. I rather pay up to live in a nice place. I rather travel to where I'm going in a straight line instead of from one train to the next train to the bus and then walk another 4 blocks just to get somewhere a cab could have taken all of 10 minutes. Yeah I know you can live 6 to an apt. I know you can live on cheap crap food the vendors sell on the street. Yeah I know you can work the system to live cheaper there then advertised. But why? I mean if you were going to NYU I can see that. But as a grown man? No come on. And like I said, women there are going to blow you off so fast the second you try pulling that garbage if only because she is going to think you are completely broke. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
OK, so I will give you a "real" example with some real numbers. I lived in Hoboken for a year, a pretty popular area for the post college 20-something crowd that did NOT want to spend 4k a month for a one bedroom walkup in Manhattan. So here's the deal. If you are in the city drinking doing whatever whether a weeknight or weekend, the last PATH train out of 34th street station was 1:15 am to Hoboken. If you missed it, and most of us did, you had to take a taxi home, which we did. The taxis's then, this was over 10 years ago, charged a flat fee of $45 from Manhattan to Hoboken. So even if you only went out on weekends and only once a week did you stay late, that alone comes out to $180 a month. Plus once you got to Manhattan you took taxi's everywhere. Yes, I agree you can slum it and when I first moved there, I did. But sooner or later dude you're going to want to get laid. I mean come on, you take a nice girl out on the town and she is all dressed up, she is NOT going to want sit in a subway tunnel at 1am with the smell of urine and homeless bums laid out across the benches. Get a cab dude and treat her right. LOL. Not to mention when it's 15 degrees outside and a foot of snow on the ground. "Hey honey, it's only 4 blocks to the Delancey station where we will wait 20 minutes for a train to get the 456 at Beaker St where we will wait another 20 minutes for the mid town train." LOL.
Yead dude, if your single and frugal and slumming it, sure you can live on the edges. But buddy, let me tell you something, and I speak as someone who did that for awhile, it gets really old really fast. Yeah your buddies might be slumming it, but once you have a decent job you are not going to live like that. You are going to take taxis. You are not going to sit in the cold for a bus or train. And btw, after 10 pm at night, the trains do NOT come that often. They run on 30 to 45 minute schedules.
Look, I loved NY OK. I had a great time there. But I'm speaking the truth here. It's fun when you are 22. It's fun when you kind of have this I don't care attitude. But as you get older, you start to care. And as you get older, it's not as fun. Things start to get to you. You start to pay up for convenience. Sure I could live on those 1.50 slices of NY pizza you could get at 2am on any street corner. But heart disease is not as cool now as it was in my 20's. LOL. I rather pay up for good food. I rather take the taxi. I rather pay up to live in a nice place. I rather travel to where I'm going in a straight line instead of from one train to the next train to the bus and then walk another 4 blocks just to get somewhere a cab could have taken all of 10 minutes. Yeah I know you can live 6 to an apt. I know you can live on cheap crap food the vendors sell on the street. Yeah I know you can work the system to live cheaper there then advertised. But why? I mean if you were going to NYU I can see that. But as a grown man? No come on. And like I said, women there are going to blow you off so fast the second you try pulling that garbage if only because she is going to think you are completely broke. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
what the heck is this garbage? I'm pretty successful in this department but the only time I used a cab for a date was when the girl was too drunk for anything even getting home. besides that's really low if you both need to be drunk. this should all be settled after 1-2 dates
what the heck is this garbage? I'm pretty successful in this department but the only time I used a cab for a date was when the girl was too drunk for anything even getting home. besides that's really low if you both need to be drunk. this should all be settled after 1-2 dates
That's HO-boken for you. Real NYers don't do Jersey -- even Hoboken. (Personally, most experiences I had in Hoboken sucked. Jersey City was bearable.)
Hahaha! Did you ever see the episode of How I Met Your Mother and these two girls said they lived in NYC and they really live in South Orange! LMFAO!
Lol if you hate smells, walking, and being without, you don't move to NYC. You and your Jersey girls must have missed the memo. One man's story is one man's story, and it's valid but not indicative of the wider experiences. I like the stank. The city's alive (not always in ways you want, true). Boston was actually way too clean for me. I like living on the fringe, anyway. I've ridden public transit in Houston rain or shine and it ain't the greatest, so I think I'm good. People call me crazy here and I guess that's why. People simply don't live the same here, which is totally fine. I think that's obvious. Houston's doing just fine going it's own way. The article is about the average person and the average person doesn't live like that in NYC.
Oh, and they actually have 89 cent pizza in the city now. Guess there's some competition. I've gotten falafel, better than I've had here, for $2. You should go for a visit.
That's HO-boken for you. Real NYers don't do Jersey -- even Hoboken.
Hahaha! Did you ever see the episode of How I Met Your Mother and these two girls said they lived in NYC and they really live in South Orange! LMFAO!
Lol if you hate smells, walking and being without you don't move to NYC. You and your Jersey girls must have missed the memo. I love the stank. Boston was actually way too clean for me. I like living on the fringe, anyway. I've ridden public transit in Houston rain or shine and it ain't the greatest, so I think I'm good. People call me crazy here and I guess that's why.
Oh, and they actually have 89 cent pizza in the city now. Guess there's some competition. I've gotten falafel, better than I've had here, for $2. You should go for a visit.
Dude, your killing your argument. Living "outside" Manhattan is the ONLY thing that even approaches a reasonable cost of living. What good does it do to save a few nickels on transport to pay 4k a month in rent? Come on. I lived in Williamsburg, Brooklyn as well and it was the same deal. Taking taxi's to get home after midnight. Honestly taxi's are a part of life there and they didn't bother me. Everyone took them whether you were rich or poor. But that does factor into the cost.
That's HO-boken for you. Real NYers don't do Jersey -- even Hoboken. (Personally, most experiences I had in Hoboken sucked. Jersey City was bearable.)
woah now easy. I have no borders like that. If you have your own place i'll be there.
Are we just going to ignore the black-koreans in newark ironbound?!? not me, but we should go to my place
My pre-school teacher daughter was able to purchase a very nice condo in Washington Heights for 250. No bridge and tunnel here. They also still have rent stabilized housing. Her MIL pays 1200 a month for a classic 5 on CPW across from Strawberry Fields. You forget that NYC has much better housing arrangements because those Wall Street and Madison Ave. folks need teachers and waiters and nurses, etc.
They do live differently in NYC, but the city makes it way easier. The rich are not complaining.
woah now easy. I have no borders like that. If you have your own place i'll be there.
Are we just going to ignore the black-koreans in newark ironbound?!? not me, but we should go to my place
Haha I was just joshin. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jek74
Dude, your killing your argument. Living "outside" Manhattan is the ONLY thing that even approaches a reasonable cost of living. What good does it do to save a few nickels on transport to pay 4k a month in rent? Come on. I lived in Williamsburg, Brooklyn as well and it was the same deal. Taking taxi's to get home after midnight. Honestly taxi's are a part of life there and they didn't bother me. Everyone took them whether you were rich or poor. But that does factor into the cost.
It's called a roommate. It's odd for people here in their 30s to have roommates but it's a lot more common there, especially since there are a lot more singles. Some people don't take taxis. Some people take them all the time. My friends at least don't mind waiting for the train after the bar, and if they did, they usually split it. I think you gotta fess up jek, you were a tad picky. Some people can afford that. But yeah Wash Heights and Harlem and Astoria have become options now. Still expensive but much more reasonable.
Last edited by theSUBlime; 11-15-2013 at 05:44 PM..
It's called a roommate. It's odd for people here in their 30s to have roommates but it's a lot more common there. And no, just no. Some people don't take taxis. Some people take them all the time. My friends at least don't mind waiting for the train after the bar, and if they did, they usually split it. I think you gotta fess up jek, you were a tad picky. Some people can afford that. But yeah Wash Heights and Harlem and Astoria have become options now. Still expensive but much more reasonable.
A roommate? LOL. I was already pricing in that you would have 3 roommates. Dude, nobody has "a" roommate in NY. You have several. Even with 2 or 3 roommates your rent is going to be 1k to 1500 a month to have about 12 sq feet of personal space and one shared bathroom! Look dude, you're probably a nice a guy in real life, you just need to go there and do it. It's not like it is on TV. Don't tell me about your friends or what you read or what you think, just live there for a year and get back to me. I've been very fair with my assessment of NY. In fact, I've said over and over again now I think everyone should live there once in their life. If you spend a year there you will REALLY appreciate Houston. I'm not saying Houston is better or worse, I'm saying you will "appreciate it". Just give it a go. Living there for a year won't kill ya (I don't think). LOL.
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