Houston downtown highway project - Why are elevated highways not being proposed? (Sugar Land: transfer, living in)

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by bu2

Induced demand is nonsense.

Yes, there is some marginal increase in traffic from a few who choose not to use mass transit or who choose the freeway over arterial roads. But the big increases are because the area is growing. When I-10 opened it shaved 20 minutes off the drive from before construction started. All the while, Katy was growing like crazy.

The real question is the one Metro proposed when they did their rail line vote, "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?" I think the answer is clear. Look at any freeway where we haven't built. They are coming and we need to do what we can. There are limits. I don't know that we can add any lanes to the Katy Freeway and be effective. But most freeways could benefit from expansion.

Many freeways can be expanded and have the benefit of having increased "flow" - moving a greater # of vehicles during a given time period. However, they may still be heavily congested - like the Katy Freeway.

The position that freeways should be expanded because they'll remove congestion is laughable and should be disregarded in the context of a growing metro area. That said, the fact that they're moving more vehicles could be considered a success, even if those vehicles are moving at 15 mph.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Many freeways can be expanded and have the benefit of having increased "flow" - moving a greater # of vehicles during a given time period. However, they may still be heavily congested - like the Katy Freeway.

The position that freeways should be expanded because they'll remove congestion is laughable and should be disregarded in the context of a growing metro area. That said, the fact that they're moving more vehicles could be considered a success, even if those vehicles are moving at 15 mph.

That's what people leave out when talking about the Katy expansion - the fact it carries something like twice as many vehicles as it did previously.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by WRM20

That's what people leave out when talking about the Katy expansion - the fact it carries something like twice as many vehicles as it did previously.

One other thing that gets left out of the discussion is that when the widened highway opened, it dramatically shifted where congestion occurs. Remember pre-expansion, when if you were going toward downtown, the congestion disappeared once you hit the Loop? Now, the inside-the-Loop portion of the highway has terrible congestion, because of the increased flow of vehicles which now arrive there. Also, the backup (especially in the morning) on the ramp exiting to the southbound West Loop increased dramatically for the same reason.

It all just points to the need to start accepting congestion as a fact of life in a thriving metro area (or even ones that aren't thriving all that much) because lots of human activity + roads without user fees (tolls or per-mile charges) = congestion. Even in lower density areas like Katy - look at the congestion on both the free portion of 99 and the surface thoroughfares. Why can't people just deal with this as a fact of metro area life instead of screaming at government for some massively expensive road expansion that doesn't really remove congestion? Perhaps instead folks should look at funding alternatives to sitting in congestion or rearranging their own lives so that they're not as exposed to the risk of congestion.

[Double L]

Elevated highways are horrible, I didn't like them in San Antonio. They are unnecessarily big and it is hard to enter/exit on them. Every highway in Houston is better designed than that. I would much prefer what we are doing, which is tunneling parts of the downtown loop.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

One other thing that gets left out of the discussion is that when the widened highway opened, it dramatically shifted where congestion occurs. Remember pre-expansion, when if you were going toward downtown, the congestion disappeared once you hit the Loop? Now, the inside-the-Loop portion of the highway has terrible congestion, because of the increased flow of vehicles which now arrive there. Also, the backup (especially in the morning) on the ramp exiting to the southbound West Loop increased dramatically for the same reason.

It all just points to the need to start accepting congestion as a fact of life in a thriving metro area (or even ones that aren't thriving all that much) because lots of human activity + roads without user fees (tolls or per-mile charges) = congestion. Even in lower density areas like Katy - look at the congestion on both the free portion of 99 and the surface thoroughfares. Why can't people just deal with this as a fact of metro area life instead of screaming at government for some massively expensive road expansion that doesn't really remove congestion? Perhaps instead folks should look at funding alternatives to sitting in congestion or rearranging their own lives so that they're not as exposed to the risk of congestion.

Kind of goes with what a TXDOT planner said a few years back. The system is not scalable. You can add more lanes outside Beltway 8 almost everywhere. You can add lanes 610 to Beltway 8. But there are limits inside 610. Its like adding more elevators to a skyscraper. At some point it no longer makes sense.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by NTexas2010

I know the Katy Freeway is the poster child of induced demand theory, but one caveat or limitation of this test case is the growing population of West Houston / Greater Katy area. The widening took place at a time as new development and urban sprawl continued west at a breakneck pace; I have to wonder how much of the increase in traffic on I-10 is due to "induced demand" versus a rapidly growing population this side of town.

A better control case would be studying a major corridor that was expanded in an area with with a zero population net-growth/loss. I would be hard-pressed to believe the outcome would be identical to the traffic situation of I-10 over the last 10 years.

That's easy just look at the Eastex Freeway. It was expanded from 4-8 lanes to 10-14 lanes between DT and Kingwood, yet the new growth there did not come immediately even though travel time to DT and the Inner Loop job centers was quicker than other areas (like Katy, The Woodlands, Sugar Land, Cypress, etc.). 20-25 years later and growth is only now starting to ramp up on that side of town and unironically with the completion of a separate tollway (TX-99).

The difference with the Katy Freeway was the western sides of the metro was already the preferred side of town. Growth was already there. Cinco Ranch and Kelliwood were growing fast. The Energy Corridor already went through a boom before. It was either expand now or let traffic literally be a standstill all day until 8pm and beginning again at 5am. At least now it only backs up during rush hour just like they promised during the expansion.

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by bu2

Induced demand is nonsense.

Yes, there is some marginal increase in traffic from a few who choose not to use mass transit or who choose the freeway over arterial roads. But the big increases are because the area is growing.

But the big increases are because the area is growing..... And alternate roads are not improved or built

[Double L]

Originally Posted by Dopo

But the big increases are because the area is growing..... And alternate roads are not improved or built

Alternate roads were improved or built

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by Double L

Alternate roads were improved or built

Really?
Why is everybody and their mom still riding in I-10 when going to Katy?

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by Dopo

I don't think the issue in Austin is the elevated section
the issue is the fact that the elevated section doesn't go all the way South past downtown.

They also have the elevated section in the outer lanes rather than the inner lanes, so thru traffic in the left lanes have to merge over to the right lanes to take the elevated express lanes where local traffic has to get over to the left to take the local exit lanes, causing weaving when you're approaching the lanes.