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Old 09-01-2010, 06:27 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
interesting.
so a child who was brought legally to this country by their folks and has been here for one year has more claim to this country than a person brought to this country as a child [ilegally] but that has been here for 20 years?
who do you think would be more culturally "american"

so then culture or being a part of the culture matters little?

interesting.
There are many people in this country that have been here legally for years and years and are even citizens but "culturally" they aren't really American. So it wouldn't be far fetched to say that many that have been here illegally for numerous years are not culturally American either. Some still don't or won't speak English for one example.
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:18 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,581,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
I wasn't "comparing" the two - just saying that both had no choice in whether they were brought here or not.
But, the whole mentioning of illegal immigration of today with slavery is disrespectful to the history of slavery, what the slaves went through and Black Americans today who ironically are directly affected by undocumented people being able to work here.

As a black person, I hate when people put our descendents in the same stew as illegal immigrants of today. You can't compare (which you did) a child of an undocumented immigrant to the slave of the Atlantic slave trade.

Nor can people compare Black Americans during Civil Rights eras with undocumented immigrants.

I just had to say that because I think it is a talking-point to try to throw African slaves and Black Americans into the illegal immigration debate.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:23 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,690,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
Oh yea, let's ask ourselves this question: if we went to a country illegally or overstayed our visa and we had a baby or child with us (who is also an undocumented person), what logic is it that says that child should be automatically legal or given special consideration? Who can force a nation (any nation) to do that?

Sounds to me as though the child should be held to the same requirements. What is the child going to do legally without their parent anyway?
You're right.

What other group of lawbreakers gets rewarded or their children rewarded just because they chose to break the laws?

Children of child molestors aren't given some special rights over others. Children of bank robbers or embezzlers aren't given extra food stamps or a clothing allowance because they got used to the extra money from their parents' crimes.

Besides you know exactly where all this ends up. First they will get everyone to accept a special privilege for children whose parents broke the laws when the children were less than 1 year of age. But that's "not fair" to the 5 and 6 year olds who were smuggled in 5 years ago, they too want their citizenship reward because their parents broke the laws.

Then you have to also accept the 12 and 14 year olds who were smuggled in just 2 years ago - it's also "not their fault" even though they can't begin to say that in English. And of course there's that 17 year old kid whose parents just had him smuggled in last year, he too wants his reward. It would be unfair to send him back - that would be age discrimination after all. Maybe his parents couldn't afford the $10,000 to pay the cartel to smuggle him in earlier so it would be wealth discrimination besides.

And the pro-open borders side would then demand the illegal parents be rewarded their citizenship once the smuggled in children are given it because it would break up families to deport them.

This all gives a right that the childless illegals or those who supported their children through remittances and left them in the homeland aren't given. It rewards a special group of lawbreakers. Those who intended to come here and get welfare are rewarded more than those who didn't bring their children in. Many of those who didn't smuggle their children in, actually care a whole lot more for their kids and will not turn them over to criminal strangers working for the cartels who comprise the smugglers.

An illegal who subjects his 12 year old daughter to rape and danger gets a bigger reward than the illegal who would never dream of turning his young daughter over to criminal groups to smuggle in.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,944,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
There are many people in this country that have been here legally for years and years and are even citizens but "culturally" they aren't really American. So it wouldn't be far fetched to say that many that have been here illegally for numerous years are not culturally American either. Some still don't or won't speak English for one example.

Especially when they STILL consider themselves "proudly Mexican" if asked.............
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:40 PM
 
Location: US
3,071 posts, read 3,334,721 times
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They receive special provisions by being educated for free, plus a lot more.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:27 PM
 
Location: bold new city of the south
5,200 posts, read 4,106,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
But, the whole mentioning of illegal immigration of today with slavery is disrespectful to the history of slavery, what the slaves went through and Black Americans today who ironically are directly affected by undocumented people being able to work here.

As a black person, I hate when people put our descendents in the same stew as illegal immigrants of today. You can't compare (which you did) a child of an undocumented immigrant to the slave of the Atlantic slave trade.

Nor can people compare Black Americans during Civil Rights eras with undocumented immigrants.

I just had to say that because I think it is a talking-point to try to throw African slaves and Black Americans into the illegal immigration debate.
As a White American, I totally agree with you. Ya'll are United States citizens. They are not. They broke laws to come here, break laws to stay and take jobs and money out of OUR mouths.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:12 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,599 posts, read 31,135,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
See above. I DO try to be fair minded and see both points of view of an argument. After the discussion with my daughter I was wondering if I was "missing something", if my views showed a lack of compassion, yada yada.

In her defence, she's as I said in the "same boat" having had not much say in whether she came here or not, and is young and being in the Pac NW doesn't see the issues as much as perhaps she would if we lived elsewhere.

If things keep on the way they are going here, one day perhaps she will see the injustice of illegals being here with no repercussions when it impacts her life and that of her children directly.
We have to balance what's "right" for the kids with what's right for society in general. We have to have a bigger picture view here.

What's right for the children of illegals is for them to not be subjected to and punished by their parents' illegal activities but it is not up to us to rectify that situation especially since we did not create it. Nobody forced their parents across the border at gunpoint. They chose to come here and chose to put their children in that unenviable situation. On their heads be it.

It would not be right for our society to reward the children of some lawbreakers and not others. We have to put misguided compassion for them aside and have some compassion for the people who actually have a right to be here and whose lives and pocketbooks are being increasingly disrupted by the hordes of illegals. They are dragging us down.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:14 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,599 posts, read 31,135,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
But, the whole mentioning of illegal immigration of today with slavery is disrespectful to the history of slavery, what the slaves went through and Black Americans today who ironically are directly affected by undocumented people being able to work here.

As a black person, I hate when people put our descendents in the same stew as illegal immigrants of today. You can't compare (which you did) a child of an undocumented immigrant to the slave of the Atlantic slave trade.

Nor can people compare Black Americans during Civil Rights eras with undocumented immigrants.

I just had to say that because I think it is a talking-point to try to throw African slaves and Black Americans into the illegal immigration debate.
I completely agree. Africans were captured by or sold to Europeans and brought here in horrific conditions and generation after generation were sold into slavery. I don't see how that even begins to compare with someone who jumps the border fence because they want to make more money. It's ridiculous and insulting to the memory of the millions of Africans/African-Americans who were subjected to the horrors of the slave trade and the institution of slavery.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,858,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
In cases where the child was brought here as a minor by their parents entering the country illegally, should there be a special provision to allow them to gain legal status upon becoming 18?

Given that they really had very little if any say in the matter, it would seem fair.

I'm not talking about the so called Dream Act for illegals 18-34 - more a special visa process so that these kids who are here illegally through no fault of their own can become legal residents.

I'd rather reward someone in this position than the scum that come over as illegal adults to drop babies, suck up social services, take jobs and commit crimes.

Maybe a special visa with a prohibition on so called "chain migration" rights for a certain number of years? And to stop the "Dreamies" utilising it, have a time limit to apply - maybe only be eligible to apply from 3 months before they turn 18 to 3 months after.

Special provision? Yes, they should get a cookie on their deportation flight.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,944,131 times
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This thread was about children brought here by their illegal parents with no say, not about slavery and the history of black Americans.

I already mentioned the context in which the comment was made, and you have to realise the person that said it does not have the same context of "history" as some of you posting obviously do. She obviously doesn't have the same visceral reaction to the term "slave".
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