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Old 07-25-2011, 10:00 AM
 
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Score another one for the "blessings" of religion.

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp"]Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.[/URL]
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,461,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Score another one for the "blessings" of religion.

Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.
Not sure that I can agree.

It may be more appropriate to score another one for the blessings of politics, which is materially the same as (and, in many cases indistinguisheable from) religion in scope of involvement/investment, likelihood of minimalisation of those falling into different demographics/ideologies, propensity for motivating violence and as justification for any number of unacceptable "means".

That young man is very deeply ill and I think it is highly inappropriate to respond to this tragedy in the manner that I perceive you to be responding.
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
Not sure that I can agree.

It may be more appropriate to score another one for the blessings of politics, which is materially the same as (and, in many cases indistinguisheable from) religion in scope of involvement/investment, likelihood of minimalisation of those falling into different demographics/ideologies, propensity for motivating violence and as justification for any number of unacceptable "means".

That young man is very deeply ill and I think it is highly inappropriate to respond to this tragedy in the manner that I perceive you to be responding.
The anti-Muslim sentiment this nutcase picked up on is a product of religious bigotry. Perhaps he would have found some other "reason" for his actions, but I strongly feel that religion, with its divisiveness, mainstreamed prejudice, and institutionalized rationalization for exclusionary thinking, is entirely too easy a thing for these whackjobs to latch onto.

As for what is and is not "appropriate," think what you want. You may not see the connection here-[mod] deleted [/mod]

Last edited by june 7th; 07-27-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:41 AM
 
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Religion is the undercurrent with politics, not the other way around. Just look at the political atmosphere in our own country - hell, even Nancy Pelosi says we should govern according to the "Word" of God. And blowhards like Bachmann, Perry, Palin and Cain claim that God asked them to run for president. Religious extremism is the undercurrent for a great many of the laws in our country, including abortion, the anti-gay legislation, and even some tax legislation (churches are tax-exempt, for reasons I'll never understand).

While I agree that religion and politics are inextricably linked, I think the God craziness is the one behind the wheel. That needs to stop.
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:05 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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I believe we need to start taking care of far-right Christians, I mean, how many more are sitting in their lairs trying to figure out how to commit another atrocity just like this one? Christians need to stand up more against their radical fundamentalists. It is understandable that this is more a cultural thing, the far-right culture, but none the less we know that if he had been an atheist, or perhaps more agnostic, he would not have any self-legitimizing reason for committing these heinous crimes. These sorts of things are common themes among the far-right that occur very minutely little among the far-left, who (in their self-grandiose style) merely stoop themselves to vandalism and comic battery (pies in the face, pink fluffy cuffs, and glitter poured on head). The far-left tantrums can barely be called battery and lay thousands of miles away from the random mass-murder, killing-sprees, and life-threatening terror tactics that kooks in the far-right are known for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
It is interesting that many facebook comments before the arrest point to Islamic terrorists. This one is a Christian fundamentalist terrorist. There is no difference between these two faiths when it comes to extremism.


They would more fairly be called Islamic fundamentalist terrorists; I have many Liberal Muslim friends that would never stoop to such far-right tactics.

I confess, living in Florida, I had thought that the bombings and the killing spree had been done by Muslims kooks, since it's not the fault of conservative Islam anymore...rollzeyes...its the fault of Islamic terrorists' "mental instability".
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,461,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
The anti-Muslim sentiment this nutcase picked up on is a product of religious bigotry. Perhaps he would have found some other "reason" for his actions, but I strongly feel that religion, with its divisiveness, mainstreamed prejudice, and institutionalized rationalization for exclusionary thinking, is entirely too easy a thing for these whackjobs to latch onto.

As for what is and is not "appropriate," think what you want. You may not see the connection here Moderator cut: orphaned
I'm not certain at all that anyone knows enough about how this nutcase picked up on his particular pathology to make any determination about whether it was linked with religion. You may see the "ready-made delusions" that are being presented differently than I do or maybe you're a little more pliable to bias, I don't know.

I hope you're not assuming that I'm disagreeing based on some perceived slight to any religion, I'm not (you certainly didn't name any religion that I may or may not be affiliated with). I disagree merely because there's no way to jump to the conclusion I perceived in the original post and I find it disturbingly cynical to point fingers at religion today. It seems to me that it's disrespectful and encapsulating of the pain felt by hundreds of families on the other side of the fjords.

Religion doesn't drive squat in the Western hemisphere. Wars are fought over economy, bigotry is borne out of egregiously misguided tradition and/or simple ignorance and marketing power lies with beauty, sex and celebrity. If religion were so powerful there would be no protection for voluntary termination of an unwanted pregnancy, as an example of an incredibly divisive issue that has seen decades of crusading in force and enormous dollar amounts thrown at the argument.

Religion isn't the great evil in the world - people are.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-27-2011 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
Religion isn't the great evil in the world - people are.
And people create Religion!
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
I'm not certain at all that anyone knows enough about how this nutcase picked up on his particular pathology to make any determination about whether it was linked with religion.
That is why I posted the article. It explains how he did indeed get some fuel from reading the bigoted messages of anti-Muslim bloggers. You did read the article, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
Religion doesn't drive squat in the Western hemisphere. Wars are fought over economy, bigotry is borne out of egregiously misguided tradition and/or simple ignorance and marketing power lies with beauty, sex and celebrity. If religion were so powerful there would be no protection for voluntary termination of an unwanted pregnancy, as an example of an incredibly divisive issue that has seen decades of crusading in force and enormous dollar amounts thrown at the argument.

Religion isn't the great evil in the world - people are.
If religion was not so powerful, women wouldn't need the protection from it.

Sorry, but to say that religion doesn't drive anything in the Western hemisphere is obtuse and ridiculous: A cursory glance at the news will show you just how much it drives in the United States, from the debate over gay marriage to, as Optimus pointed out, tax policy. Religion drives voters to vote certain ways, consumers to buy (or not buy) certain items, and lawmakers to try to legislate health care practice, such as saying that it is okay for pharmacists to deny the morning-after Pill if it's against their religion.

And that is just the U.S. Go to Central and South America. You will see how deeply entrenched religion is in countries there.
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Old 07-25-2011, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
That is why I posted the article. It explains how he did indeed get some fuel from reading the bigoted messages of anti-Muslim bloggers. You did read the article, right?




If religion was not so powerful, women wouldn't need the protection from it.

Sorry, but to say that religion doesn't drive anything in the Western hemisphere is obtuse and ridiculous: A cursory glance at the news will show you just how much it drives in the United States, from the debate over gay marriage to, as Optimus pointed out, tax policy. Religion drives voters to vote certain ways, consumers to buy (or not buy) certain items, and lawmakers to try to legislate health care practice, such as saying that it is okay for pharmacists to deny the morning-after Pill if it's against their religion.

And that is just the U.S. Go to Central and South America. You will see how deeply entrenched religion is in countries there.
I see you have selected Central and South America as evidence. You're right. There are a lot of Catholics growing coca, nationalizing oil industries, killing competition, violently consolidating governments elected in the spirit of Republic, and generally behaving in a gnarly fashion. Is that for the Virgin of the Guadalupe or is it for economics?

Also, a church being tax exempt hardly constitutes any sort substantial tax policy and to assert otherwise is verging on ridiculous. If you apply taxes to churches, you need to apply taxes to NPO's like, for example, GayChristianSurvivors.com under the same premise.

I'm not saying that religion isn't a large part of American culture or world culture because it obviously is. I'm saying that it isn't the great, controlling, oppressive force that you seem to think it is. When you get down to it, it doesn't really work for crowd control very well. It just helps form teams.

Do you think the Israelis and the Palestinians don't get along because the tenets of their respective faiths forbid it or because they want the same real estate?


EDIT: "That is why I posted the article. It explains how he did indeed get some fuel from reading the bigoted messages of anti-Muslim bloggers. You did read the article, right?" I almost forgot this part. Yes, I read the article. It actually got me started on a fairly consuming reading spree. Did you get past the part where the author is trying to redirect your attention from the distant, non-American, far-from-home tragedy in Oslo to being scared of some crossed-tooth idiots in Michigan and clamoring for the abolition of the evil, nebulous notion of religion?

Last edited by jimboburnsy; 07-25-2011 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 07-25-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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In reality, this has far less to do with U.S. Anti-Muslim thought and far more to do with the perils and idiocy of religion. The Norway shooter was, it appears, a far-right Christian extremist who was a Zionist supporter and a hater of Islam. His entire mantra, from what I've read, was centered around his dislike of a multi-cultural Europe with "Islamification" at the forefront.

In reality, his diseased mind was not much different than many white power groups, hate groups, and other far-right groups in the U.S. with the exception that most hate groups in the U.S. hate Jews and Muslims equally. But, it truly took religion to ignite the gunfire, mayhem and destruction that he caused. Without religion, whether it be Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, there would have been far fewer reasons for him to wrap his hate-filled mind around.

Without religion, he may still harbor hatred for people of different skin color, of different traditions, and perhaps different ways of thinking. Hatred and religion are not mutually exclusive. However, it takes something like religion for a person to justify the actions of what he's doing as something "Good in the eyes of God," or rather to put it in his own words, "Horrible but necessary."

The nuttiness, the idiocy, the behavior, and the final actions may not have been solely religiously motivated. But, the nuttiness, idiocy and stupid behavior of religion often goes hand in hand with those who already harbor such instinctual behavior. Religion is often a magnet for these sorts of people because it has so much in common with them. Fictitious imaginings of righteous behavior, violence in the name of something "greater," and belief without evidence of something they are being commanded to do not only ring true for schizophrenia, psychosis, and insanity but also with religion.

There is no difference between a Christian terrorist or a Muslim terrorist except that the media calls a Christian terrorist an "extremist" (not so condemnatory) while a Muslim is apparently the only one who can receive the grand title of "terrorist." In reality, the pathological misconceptions of any brand of religion have proven themselves to produce terrorists, radicals, and psychos of epic proportions. The Norway shooter was every bit as radical, as fundamentally flawed, and as obsessed with the purification of Christianity as any Muslim terrorist with a bomb strapped to his or her chest.

The spotlight indeed should be shone on groups in the U.S. who harbor the same fundamental style of thinking. Christianity groups should not be thought of as any less capable of producing terrorists than any Muslim group. They are both equally destructive forces to humanity, to decency, and to non-violent behavior. It is also time that Christians, especially those in our government, stop blaming Islam as a religion of violence that the vast majority of Muslims don't participate in but also don't speak out against. Much of Christianity in America is just as hate-filled, just as insane, and just as trivially bogus as Islam. While Muslims may be doing the majority of the violence, the shootings in Norway show that Christianity can be just as violent, just as wrapped up in insanity, and just as morbidly dangerous as Islam.
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