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Old 12-17-2015, 10:00 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not a blanket principle that shouting the name of the founder of the religion meant we blame the religion.
Some Buddhists may have shouted 'In the name of Buddha' when they kill others but it has nothing to do with the religion.
In such a situation we have to cross reference the evil acts committed by the Buddhists to the core scriptures of Buddhism. There are no leading and motivating evil verses in the core scriptures of Buddhism that condone and motivate Buddhists to commit terrible evils and violence.
We have to do the same for Christianity which has an override pacifist maxim in the New Testament [this is the core text of Christianity, not the Old Testament].


However it is a different issue for Islam.
The Quran has evil laden verses [dressed in very vague and ambiguous terms] in it whole context that sanction and exhort Muslims to kill non-Muslims in their striving for the cause of Allah or in the way of Allah with their life and their wealth. Such evil laden verses catalyze and inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims while shouting Allahu Akbar. This is a reality that has happened since Muhammad's time till the present.


Allahu Akbar is sort of an habituated cry by SOME Muslims.
When SOME of these Muslims who has been habituated with the cry of Allahu Akbar, they would have said it when killing innocent people walking on the street. I don't have actual evidence [yet] but based on such a principle, it is very plausible.
No where Allah says in the Quran that you should kill innocent people who pose no harm to you, in fact Allah (swt) says in the Quran that if you kill one innocent human being its like you killed the whole humanity,
fight is only allowed against oppression or in self-defense but you are saying Muslims should not even fight in self defense they should volunteer themselves to be get killed. Will you suggest the same for US?

by the way Crusaders did killed in the name of Christianity but no one blamed Christianity for that

There is no evil or anything like that in the Quran Its your way of seeing things with negative mind and if 1% were true then fellow citizens of your country and in western world would have never been converted to Islam in Huge numbers and among those there are people who were Islamophobic just like you
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
No where Allah says in the Quran that you should kill innocent people who pose no harm to you, in fact Allah (swt) says in the Quran that if you kill one innocent human being its like you killed the whole humanity,
fight is only allowed against oppression or in self-defense but you are saying Muslims should not even fight in self defense they should volunteer themselves to be get killed. Will you suggest the same for US?

by the way Crusaders did killed in the name of Christianity but no one blamed Christianity for that

There is no evil or anything like that in the Quran Its your way of seeing things with negative mind and if 1% were true then fellow citizens of your country and in western world would have never been converted to Islam in Huge numbers and among those there are people who were Islamophobic just like you
I agree the Quran did not specifically mention Muslims must kill innocent people who pose no harm to Muslims.


However if we take the evil laden verses in the Quran and the martial background of Muhammad into consideration, it generate a partially evil and hatred ethos that is directed at the infidels [kuffar].


Fighting is sanction for the Muslims, but it not only for self-defense [which is obvious] but Muslims must strive for the cause of Allah with their life and wealth to protect the religion if under threat.


As I said, the problem is the term 'Islam under threat' is not specific and clear, thus ambiguous.
Islam is a matter of life [eternal life in heaven] or death [to Hellfire]. Under such pressure, SOME Muslims are very sensitive and perceived any act that they interpret as negative as threat to Islam.
The Quran termed these negative acts by non-Muslims under the label corruption, mischiefs, wronged and the liked.


Because of the ambiguity and extreme sensitivity of SOME Muslims [note 20% = 300 million], drawing of cartoon is regarded as a threat and many non-Muslims are killed and properties destroyed just because of cartoons!! Non-Muslims forces in majority-Muslims are perceived as a threat by SOME Muslims even when they are invited by Muslims or have good reasons to do it. There are so many acts by non-Muslims that are interpreted as a threat to Islam, i.e. education, technology, arts, etc. that are a threat to Islam.


Another point is Allah exhort Muslims to spread the Islam, i.e. the most superior religion over all other religions. Thus when Muslims venture to proselytize, they provoke the non-Muslims. When the non-Muslims countered to defend their religion, they are accused as a threat to Islam. Then some extra-sensitive Muslims will start their reign on terror on the non-Muslims.


Note 80% of Muslims are good people, but the way Islam is set up with its evil laden elements and ethos it inevitably facilitate some evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence which they deem as right and not sinful. Since there is no central authority in Islam WHO ARE YOU [including me and others] to insist the jihadists are practicing the wrong Islam.


So note, Islam is not all bad, but part of Islam, i.e. the evil laden verses [vague and ambiguous] place Islam in a position for SOME evil prone Muslims to be inspired and motivated to carry out terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims and even Muslims. There is nothing any one can do to deter the jihadists because only Allah can judge them.


Therefore you have to recognize the fact that Islam is partly [not wholly] evil.


5:32 'kill one as if kill whole of humanity':
The 5:32 'kill one as if kill whole of humanity' as a standard maxim is a false call as far as Islam is concern.
The next verse 5:33 provide an escape clause for Muslims to kill non-Muslims if they commit corruption which is also synonymous with 'mischief' and 'wronged'.


As I mentioned above, because the above terms are vague, the jihadists can interpret whatever they don't like of the kafara's [infidels, kuffar] act as 'corruption,' mischief or as being 'wronged.'
Therefore the exception of 5:33 give the jihadists permission to kill non-Muslims and thus they are not sinful when they kill non-Muslims who draw cartoons of Muhammad. They regarded themselves as not sinful if they had killed Malala for her promotion of education, on anything they don't like with non-Muslims. The point is no one can judge the jihadists when they claimed they are acting with Allah permission as sanctioned in the Quran.


By the divine law of pacifism in the New Testament, the Crusaders could NOT have killed in the name of Christianity even if they claimed so.
In principle the Crusaders would have been rebuked by God on Judgment Day with the following scolding;
... "WTF! I told all of you [crusaders] to love your enemies, not kill them!"
The Crusaders did it on their own to defend their religion in contravention to Christ's pacifist maxim in the NT.
They would have faced punishments, perhaps lightly taking into account the context as the Muslims were the aggressive imperialists in the first place.


Note the majority of humans cling desperately to a religion for soteriological reasons [eternal life in heaven and avoid Hell] in the first instance.
The violence and evil came later when SOME evil prone Muslims are subliminally compelled to comply and commit evils and violence by the evil laden elements in the holy texts with the hope of a greater assurance to get to Paradise with virgins and other superlative sensual delights.


It is like being attracted to joining the Mafia or any violent gang for the glamor, loots, women, etc. but then one is sucked into their inevitable evils and violence that are part and parcel of the ethos of such violent gangs.
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:56 PM
 
88 posts, read 35,047 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree the Quran did not specifically mention Muslims must kill innocent people who pose no harm to Muslims.


However if we take the evil laden verses in the Quran and the martial background of Muhammad into consideration, it generate a partially evil and hatred ethos that is directed at the infidels [kuffar].


Fighting is sanction for the Muslims, but it not only for self-defense [which is obvious] but Muslims must strive for the cause of Allah with their life and wealth to protect the religion if under threat.


As I said, the problem is the term 'Islam under threat' is not specific and clear, thus ambiguous.
Islam is a matter of life [eternal life in heaven] or death [to Hellfire]. Under such pressure, SOME Muslims are very sensitive and perceived any act that they interpret as negative as threat to Islam.
The Quran termed these negative acts by non-Muslims under the label corruption, mischiefs, wronged and the liked.


Because of the ambiguity and extreme sensitivity of SOME Muslims [note 20% = 300 million], drawing of cartoon is regarded as a threat and many non-Muslims are killed and properties destroyed just because of cartoons!! Non-Muslims forces in majority-Muslims are perceived as a threat by SOME Muslims even when they are invited by Muslims or have good reasons to do it. There are so many acts by non-Muslims that are interpreted as a threat to Islam, i.e. education, technology, arts, etc. that are a threat to Islam.


Another point is Allah exhort Muslims to spread the Islam, i.e. the most superior religion over all other religions. Thus when Muslims venture to proselytize, they provoke the non-Muslims. When the non-Muslims countered to defend their religion, they are accused as a threat to Islam. Then some extra-sensitive Muslims will start their reign on terror on the non-Muslims.


Note 80% of Muslims are good people, but the way Islam is set up with its evil laden elements and ethos it inevitably facilitate some evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence which they deem as right and not sinful. Since there is no central authority in Islam WHO ARE YOU [including me and others] to insist the jihadists are practicing the wrong Islam.


So note, Islam is not all bad, but part of Islam, i.e. the evil laden verses [vague and ambiguous] place Islam in a position for SOME evil prone Muslims to be inspired and motivated to carry out terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims and even Muslims. There is nothing any one can do to deter the jihadists because only Allah can judge them.


Therefore you have to recognize the fact that Islam is partly [not wholly] evil.


5:32 'kill one as if kill whole of humanity':
The 5:32 'kill one as if kill whole of humanity' as a standard maxim is a false call as far as Islam is concern.
The next verse 5:33 provide an escape clause for Muslims to kill non-Muslims if they commit corruption which is also synonymous with 'mischief' and 'wronged'.


As I mentioned above, because the above terms are vague, the jihadists can interpret whatever they don't like of the kafara's [infidels, kuffar] act as 'corruption,' mischief or as being 'wronged.'
Therefore the exception of 5:33 give the jihadists permission to kill non-Muslims and thus they are not sinful when they kill non-Muslims who draw cartoons of Muhammad. They regarded themselves as not sinful if they had killed Malala for her promotion of education, on anything they don't like with non-Muslims. The point is no one can judge the jihadists when they claimed they are acting with Allah permission as sanctioned in the Quran.


By the divine law of pacifism in the New Testament, the Crusaders could NOT have killed in the name of Christianity even if they claimed so.
In principle the Crusaders would have been rebuked by God on Judgment Day with the following scolding;
... "WTF! I told all of you [crusaders] to love your enemies, not kill them!"
The Crusaders did it on their own to defend their religion in contravention to Christ's pacifist maxim in the NT.
They would have faced punishments, perhaps lightly taking into account the context as the Muslims were the aggressive imperialists in the first place.


Note the majority of humans cling desperately to a religion for soteriological reasons [eternal life in heaven and avoid Hell] in the first instance.
The violence and evil came later when SOME evil prone Muslims are subliminally compelled to comply and commit evils and violence by the evil laden elements in the holy texts with the hope of a greater assurance to get to Paradise with virgins and other superlative sensual delights.


It is like being attracted to joining the Mafia or any violent gang for the glamor, loots, women, etc. but then one is sucked into their inevitable evils and violence that are part and parcel of the ethos of such violent gangs.
If someone misinterpret Quran then Islam is not be blamed its the person. If you buy a brand new car and and did not know how to drive and you bangs up the car will you blame the manufacturer or yourself ? if Quran says clearly that you cannot kill a innocent person then it means you cannot no matter what, people died in 9/11 were innocent people, no matter who killed them Osama or some powerful people in Govt. and if Osama did it then surely he will be punished by Allah and if someone else did he will be too.

about the crusader thing, the crusader can also rebuke their "God" that we did not know about the new testament and why you changed your mind because God is all powerful and all knowing

about the imperialism by Muslims, you should read the history that when Crusaders captured the Jerusalem they killed every Muslim they found but when Salahudin Ayubi took control of Jerusalem he did not killed a single unarmed christian.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
If someone misinterpret Quran then Islam is not be blamed its the person. If you buy a brand new car and and did not know how to drive and you bangs up the car will you blame the manufacturer or yourself ? if Quran says clearly that you cannot kill a innocent person then it means you cannot no matter what, people died in 9/11 were innocent people, no matter who killed them Osama or some powerful people in Govt. and if Osama did it then surely he will be punished by Allah and if someone else did he will be too.
Your car example is too shallow and irrelevant for this example.
Do you know why there is a general censorship on certain violence in the medias and there are PG ratings for films [cinema, videos and others].
Do you understand subliminal influence [a psychological element] on the subconscious mind?


Why there is a general censorship on certain violence is the medias is because it can subliminally influence young innocent children and teens into violence. It is not that these young people consciously interpret the shows and material that they go out and commit violence.
Exposure to violence by some adults will also trigger their violent instincts.


Therefore the control of violence in this aspects is not to introduce evil and violent laden elements to those vulnerable to violence. This is the reason why certain extreme violence scenes and materials are banned, censored or controlled.


Religious is a very sensitive matter and it involve the threat of going to hell if a believer do not comply with the dictates of God in his holy texts.
Therefore a holy texts that involve God should not have any evil laden elements at all that is vulnerable to be interpreted as sanctioned by God.


I have argued VERY STRONGLY the Quran contain evil laden elements that are very vague and convey the message that believers will achieve greater rewards if they carry out the violent 'commands' of God as stated in the Quran.
WHO ARE YOU to judge on behalf of Allah that those Muslims of ISIS or other jihadist groups has misinterpreted the Quran.


The presence of so much evil laden elements in the Quran indicate objectively the Quran is a low and an inferiority spiritual work by some person or a group of persons.


As a comparison note the wiser and superior Buddhist and other similar scriptures which do not has any leading evil laden elements. Such absence of evil laden elements do not provide opportunity for any believers to misinterpret any evil laden verses.


Quote:
about the crusader thing, the crusader can also rebuke their "God" that we did not know about the new testament and why you changed your mind because God is all powerful and all knowing
Rebuke an all powerful god, this is silly and a crazy suggestion.
At most they will plead for leniency and repent for their sins.

[/quote]about the imperialism by Muslims, you should read the history that when Crusaders captured the Jerusalem they killed every Muslim they found but when Salahudin Ayubi took control of Jerusalem he did not killed a single unarmed christian.[/quote]All human beings are potentially evil like beasts. As I always claimed, 20% are evil prone.
Those crusaders who committed evil did it due to their own evil prone nature not because they were inspired by the New Testament which has an overriding maxim of 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheek' and the likes.


You should read about the American Army in Vietnam [Woodrow is a war veteran] and elsewhere. There is no rules that allow American soldiers that allow them to kill the innocent deliberately. But it has happened where American soldiers did kill innocent people in the most abominable and evil ways. When caught these soldiers were court martial and punished accordingly.


The problem with Islam and the Quran is the verses that has evil laden elements are not clear cut and specific to deter evils and violence. Note for example the exception of 5:33 where Muslims can kill anyone if they commit 'corruption' a very vague term and Allah is not around to clarify and confirm what he really meant.


Therefore those Muslims who kill non-Muslims for merely drawing cartoons are not sinful but will be rewarded by Allah on Judgment Day because they comply with what Allah ordained in the Quran.
Note there is no room nor permission for YOU to judge and comment on this. If you do so, you are offending Allah and going against his words.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:56 AM
 
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The context of verse 5:33 itself will clear any negative perceptions against Islam. One cannot quote verse 5:33 without quoting verse 5:32 (prohibition of murder) and verse 5:34 (command to forgive). Now examine the verse in its proper context:

5:32-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

There are several points to note here. The first is the gravity of the offense. This is punishment for WAGING WAR against the Prophet of God and spreading evil and destruction. In modern terminology this would be considered “terrorism”. This is a punishment for such a severe offense, hence the severity of the punishment

The present participle la-musrifun indicates their “continuously committing excesses” (i.e., crimes), and is best rendered as “they go on committing” them. In view of the preceding passages, these “excesses” obviously refer to crimes of violence and, in particular, to the ruthless killing of human beings. (Asad, The Message of the Qur’an)
It is quite shocking to see how many Islam-haters will place this verse under the heading of “inciting Muslims to kill and wage war”, whereas the verse commands nothing of this sort! In fact, it comes directly after a verse prohibiting murder and likening the unjust murder of a single individual to the slaughter of humanity. The Qur’an purposefully describes the gravity of the sin before describing the punishment. The crime of murder and committing terrorist activities is regarded as such a severe violation in Islam, that a severe retribution has been prescribed. Waging war against God’s prophet is tantamount to waging war against Our Creator Himself. It is ironic that Islam-haters will present this verse to justify their claim that Islam supports terrorism, whereas Muslim scholars have always presented this verse as proof that Islam is vehemently opposed to terrorism. For example, the Islamic Fiqh Council of Saudi Arabia writes about this verse:

Obviously, in view of the enormity of such acts of aggression, which are viewed by the Shari’ah (Islamic law) as an act of war against the laws and the creatures of God, there is no stricter punishment anywhere in the manmade laws. (Islamic Fiqh Council of Saudi Arabia, Terrorism – Islam’s viewpoint, Muslim World League Journal, Jumad al-Ula 1423/July 2002 CE)

Is it logical to inform someone about a certain punishment without telling them about the crime? Yet, this is exactly what the enemies of Islam have done to deceive people into thinking Islam is a violent religion. They cite only verse 5:33 without verse 5:32 or verse 5:34, which brings us to our next point.

Likewise, Abdullah Yusuf Ali comments:

For the double crime of treason against State, combined with treason against God, as shown by overt crimes, four alternative punishments are mentioned, any one of which is to be applied according to circumstances…except that tortures such as “hanging, drawing, and quartering” in English Law, and piercing of eyes and leaving the unfortunate victim exposed to a tropical sun, which was practiced in Arabia, and all such tortures were abolished. In any case sincere repentance before it was too late was recognized as grounds for mercy. (Yusuf Ali, The English Translation of the Holy Qur’an, emphasis added)

In light of the above mentioned points, we can clearly reject any claims of this verse supporting “violence and warfare” as baseless. The textual context, historical context, legal context, and comparative analysis of this verse all demonstrate that this verse merely enjoins justice in return for grave offences, and by no means can support the lies of the Islam-haters.
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
The context of verse 5:33 itself will clear any negative perceptions against Islam. One cannot quote verse 5:33 without quoting verse 5:32 (prohibition of murder) and verse 5:34 (command to forgive). Now examine the verse in its proper context:

5:32-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

There are several points to note here. The first is the gravity of the offense. This is punishment for WAGING WAR against the Prophet of God and spreading evil and destruction. In modern terminology this would be considered “terrorism”. This is a punishment for such a severe offense, hence the severity of the punishment

The present participle la-musrifun indicates their “continuously committing excesses” (i.e., crimes), and is best rendered as “they go on committing” them. In view of the preceding passages, these “excesses” obviously refer to crimes of violence and, in particular, to the ruthless killing of human beings. (Asad, The Message of the Qur’an)
It is quite shocking to see how many Islam-haters will place this verse under the heading of “inciting Muslims to kill and wage war”, whereas the verse commands nothing of this sort! In fact, it comes directly after a verse prohibiting murder and likening the unjust murder of a single individual to the slaughter of humanity. The Qur’an purposefully describes the gravity of the sin before describing the punishment. The crime of murder and committing terrorist activities is regarded as such a severe violation in Islam, that a severe retribution has been prescribed. Waging war against God’s prophet is tantamount to waging war against Our Creator Himself. It is ironic that Islam-haters will present this verse to justify their claim that Islam supports terrorism, whereas Muslim scholars have always presented this verse as proof that Islam is vehemently opposed to terrorism. For example, the Islamic Fiqh Council of Saudi Arabia writes about this verse:

Obviously, in view of the enormity of such acts of aggression, which are viewed by the Shari’ah (Islamic law) as an act of war against the laws and the creatures of God, there is no stricter punishment anywhere in the manmade laws. (Islamic Fiqh Council of Saudi Arabia, Terrorism – Islam’s viewpoint, Muslim World League Journal, Jumad al-Ula 1423/July 2002 CE)

Is it logical to inform someone about a certain punishment without telling them about the crime? Yet, this is exactly what the enemies of Islam have done to deceive people into thinking Islam is a violent religion. They cite only verse 5:33 without verse 5:32 or verse 5:34, which brings us to our next point.

Likewise, Abdullah Yusuf Ali comments:

For the double crime of treason against State, combined with treason against God, as shown by overt crimes, four alternative punishments are mentioned, any one of which is to be applied according to circumstances…except that tortures such as “hanging, drawing, and quartering” in English Law, and piercing of eyes and leaving the unfortunate victim exposed to a tropical sun, which was practiced in Arabia, and all such tortures were abolished. In any case sincere repentance before it was too late was recognized as grounds for mercy. (Yusuf Ali, The English Translation of the Holy Qur’an, emphasis added)

In light of the above mentioned points, we can clearly reject any claims of this verse supporting “violence and warfare” as baseless. The textual context, historical context, legal context, and comparative analysis of this verse all demonstrate that this verse merely enjoins justice in return for grave offences, and by no means can support the lies of the Islam-haters.

You are off base and out of context re this point;
"They cite only verse 5:33 without verse 5:32 or verse 5:34, which brings us to our next point."

In the first place it is the Muslims [many] who quote verse 5:32 without bringing in verse 5:33 and not the other way round with non-Muslims.
Then this 5:32 is quoted blindly by most Muslims and non-Muslims apologists and even world leaders to blindly support the wrong fact without reference [they were fooled] to the exception in 5:33.


Note this very important point;
IF the Muslims had not quoted 5:32 [kill one as if kill mankind] to bullsh:t everyone else as if it is universal rule, the critics would not bother about reminding Muslims of 5:33, the 'corruption' exception.


Non-Muslims critics never claimed that 5:32 incites SOME Muslims to kill non-Muslim.
There are other much more substantial verses that inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims and even other Muslims.

The main point is this;
Note there are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world.
As recognized approximately 20% of Muslims [as with All humans] are very inclined towards evil [negative bad] behaviors.


It is the natural presence of 20% of Muslims who are of our concern, not so much the 80% moderate Muslims.
What incite many of these from the 20% of evil prone Muslims is the evil [beside the good] ethos of Islam that is present in >55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad.


When SOME of these evil prone Muslims commit evil as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran, the first reaction of the moderates are to invoke 5:32.


As a defense to counter 5:32 the jihadists will invoke 5:33 as an exemption for them to do their evil, i.e. kill non-Muslims wherever they find them.
They will insist on the following reason;
"Look, the non-Muslims are committing "corruption" against Muslims and Islam by occupying Muslims' land, hindering Muslims from practicing their religion, raping our women, oppressing Muslims, insulting the prophet, THEREFORE we are justified in killing them as per 5:32 and the 5:33 -kill one as if kill mankind maxim - do not apply in our case. We are merely complying with what Allah had ordained in the Quran."
Now, WHO ARE YOU [a slave of Allah] [me or anyone] to argue, insist and judge they are wrong?
You cannot judge as only Allah can decide on Judgment Day upon reading their Iliyin [book of deeds and thoughts].


My point;
1.Many Muslims invoke 5:32 to justify Islam is a religion of peace but at all times [99.9%] they never mention 5:33. This is a pure deception to bullsh:t non-Muslims and even Muslims who do not read the Quran thoroughly.
2. The only reason non-Muslims critics invoke 5:33 is to remind those Muslims they are deceptive and not to accuse SOME Muslims as being incited to violence.
3. What incited and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims to terrible evils is the 3000+ verses in the Quran than contain evil [bad & negative] elements in the Quran. [beside the good verses].


I hope you will remember the above facts.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-19-2015 at 08:31 PM..
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:27 PM
 
88 posts, read 35,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are off base and out of context re this point;
"They cite only verse 5:33 without verse 5:32 or verse 5:34, which brings us to our next point."

In the first place it is the Muslims [many] who quote verse 5:32 without bringing in verse 5:33 and not the other way round with non-Muslims.
Then this 5:32 is quoted blindly by most Muslims and non-Muslims apologists and even world leaders to blindly support the wrong fact without reference [they were fooled] to the exception in 5:33.


Note this very important point;
IF the Muslims had not quoted 5:32 [kill one as if kill mankind] to bullsh:t everyone else as if it is universal rule, the critics would not bother about reminding Muslims of 5:33, the 'corruption' exception.


Non-Muslims critics never claimed that 5:32 incites SOME Muslims to kill non-Muslim.
There are other much more substantial verses that inspired SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims and even other Muslims.

The main point is this;
Note there are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world.
As recognized approximately 20% of Muslims [as with All humans] are very inclined towards evil [negative bad] behaviors.


It is the natural presence of 20% of Muslims who are of our concern, not so much the 80% moderate Muslims.
What incite many of these from the 20% of evil prone Muslims is the evil [beside the good] ethos of Islam that is present in >55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad.


When SOME of these evil prone Muslims commit evil as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran, the first reaction of the moderates are to invoke 5:32.


As a defense to counter 5:32 the jihadists will invoke 5:33 as an exemption for them to do their evil, i.e. kill non-Muslims wherever they find them.
They will insist on the following reason;
"Look, the non-Muslims are committing "corruption" against Muslims and Islam by occupying Muslims' land, hindering Muslims from practicing their religion, raping our women, oppressing Muslims, insulting the prophet, THEREFORE we are justified in killing them as per 5:32 and the 5:33 -kill one as if kill mankind maxim - do not apply in our case. We are merely complying with what Allah had ordained in the Quran."
Now, WHO ARE YOU [a slave of Allah] [me or anyone] to argue, insist and judge they are wrong?
You cannot judge as only Allah can decide on Judgment Day upon reading their Iliyin [book of deeds and thoughts].


My point;
1.Many Muslims invoke 5:32 to justify Islam is a religion of peace but at all times [99.9%] they never mention 5:33. This is a pure deception to bullsh:t non-Muslims and even Muslims who do not read the Quran thoroughly.
2. The only reason non-Muslims critics invoke 5:33 is to remind those Muslims they are deceptive and not to accuse SOME Muslims as being incited to violence.
3. What incited and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims to terrible evils is the 3000+ verses in the Quran than contain evil [bad & negative] elements in the Quran. [beside the good verses].


I hope you will remember the above facts.
your statement about Judging them is correct to some extent. We cannot Judge anyone who will go to Jannah or hell fire even I cannot say you will go to hell fire because I dont know you can accept Islam before you die. only Allah can judge who will go to hell fire but we can judge someone according to the law of Allah for example if someone killed a innocent person, we can judge him from Quran that killing of innocent person is a Big Sin and its punishment is death but we cannot say he will surely go to hell fire its not our job.


we can judge those evil persons from Quran 5:32 and you said they will invoke 5:33 to justify their actions right. I am agreeing with your argument:
Look, the non-Muslims are committing "corruption" against Muslims and Islam by occupying Muslims' land, hindering Muslims from practicing their religion, raping our women, oppressing Muslims, insulting the prophet, THEREFORE we are justified in killing them as per 5:32 and the 5:33 -kill one as if kill mankind maxim - do not apply in our case. We are merely complying with what Allah had ordained in the Quran."


I want your attention to this one

Now according to Quran 5:32 killing of innocent is Biggest Sin, No dispute over this verse not even by the critics. Your argument which i posted above, according to that argument the people who are raping women, occupying musliim land, killing children, oppressing muslims, Now if they invoke 5:33 on those people who are actually doing all of above mentioned acts is justified but the people who were at Paris or in recent shooting in America or in 9/11, they never done any of those acts which I mentioned above. If you even kill my whole family, according to Islam i cannot kill your family, Its a Big Sin so they were innocent people, Its very clear that the killing of innocent people is absolutely prohibited in Islam and I hope this is enough for you brother.
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
your statement about Judging them is correct to some extent. We cannot Judge anyone who will go to Jannah or hell fire even I cannot say you will go to hell fire because I dont know you can accept Islam before you die. only Allah can judge who will go to hell fire but we can judge someone according to the law of Allah for example if someone killed a innocent person, we can judge him from Quran that killing of innocent person is a Big Sin and its punishment is death but we cannot say he will surely go to hell fire its not our job.
Yes, you, I or any one can judge on a personal basis, but whatever is your judgment it has no divine authority over who ever you have judged.


If you judge the Muslims of ISIS to be sinful, your judgment has no impact nor can you stop them from continuing to do what they think is in accordance to Allah's command or guidance.
Therefore as long as the Muslims interpret their acts as in accordance with the Quran [& Hadiths] there is no one in the world who can argue and convince they are wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah.


Quote:
Originally Posted by continuum
we can judge those evil persons from Quran 5:32 and you said they will invoke 5:33 to justify their actions right. I am agreeing with your argument:
Look, the non-Muslims are committing "corruption" against Muslims and Islam by occupying Muslims' land, hindering Muslims from practicing their religion, raping our women, oppressing Muslims, insulting the prophet, THEREFORE we are justified in killing them as per 5:32 and the 5:33 -kill one as if kill mankind maxim - do not apply in our case. We are merely complying with what Allah had ordained in the Quran."

Quote:
I want your attention to this one
Quote:
Now according to Quran 5:32 killing of innocent is Biggest Sin, No dispute over this verse not even by the critics. Your argument which i posted above, according to that argument the people who are raping women, occupying muslim land, killing children, oppressing muslims, Now if they invoke 5:33 on those people who are actually doing all of above mentioned acts is justified but the people who were at Paris or in recent shooting in America or in 9/11, they never done any of those acts which I mentioned above. If you even kill my whole family, according to Islam i cannot kill your family, Its a Big Sin so they were innocent people, Its very clear that the killing of innocent people is absolutely prohibited in Islam and I hope this is enough for you brother.
The examples [I cannot list all] I have given are a samples of negative acts committed by the Kuffar that are a threat against [hinder] the practice by Muslims and progress of Islam which want to dominate the world [Allah stated Islam is superior over all other religions].


5:33 give the exception to the maxim 'kill one as if kill mankind' i.e. if there is 'corruption'.
The terms 'corruption' is very loose and include synonymous terms like 'mischief' 'wronged' 'hindering Muslims from practicing their religion' and anything that is negative and a threat to Islam.


In the context of the whole of the Quran, the following constitute a threat [corruption. mischiefs, wronged, a threat, etc.] to Islam.


1. The very existence of Kuffar [potentially corrupt] is a threat to Islam.


2. Kuffar [infidels and non-Muslims] are worst than any creatures, they are apes, swines, cattle, ass and other terrible labels are condemned upon the kuffar. This is the dehumanization strategy to treat the kuffar as if they are like a piece of Sh;t which can be easily dispensed with.

3. There are hundreds of verses that warned against the threats of the kuffar.


4. The Quran reminded, 'travel around and beware of the evidence of how Allah has destroyed, demolished, kill, torture the kuffar of olden day because the disbelieved and are a threat to Islam.


5. Allah command Muslims to cast terrors onto the Kuffar.


6. There are the various verses of fighting and killing the kuffar with [very vague] and without conditions.


7. There is the command to subjugate the kuffar because they are worthless as a piece of 'sh;t' [note 2]


8. More that 55% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran is directed at condemning the kuffar.


9. There are so many other reasons with the most minor excuse where a Muslim can oppress and kill non-Muslims.


The above 1-9 thus considered even innocent Muslims as potential target as they are a threat to Islam. In addition most would have heard of Islam but chose not to convert, therefore are kuffar that can be killed for disbelieving.


With so many opportunities in the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS and other evil prone Muslims can easily be inspired and motivated to commit terrible evils and violence upon the kuffar and infidels [wherever you find them]. There is no need for them to resort to 5:32 to defend their acts.


Note I stated, the Muslims of ISIS have never used 5:33 to justify their killing of the kuffar and infidels [innocent of otherwise]. There are so many thousands of verses taken in context of the whole of Islam and the ethos of Muhammad to kill kuffars [regardless of innocent or not].
Point is no one in the Word can insist they are wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah as per the Quran.


Note this critical point;
5:32 was raised by rational critiques who used it deceptively to counter the false claim that Islam is an absolutely religion of Peace, i.e. which insist 'kill one as if kill mankind.'
Bush, Obama, Cameron and many leaders kept insisting 'Islam is a religion of Peace' and they often quote 5:32 blindly and ignorantly [I say they are very stupid leaders in this case] not knowing they have been shortchanged [or duped] by SOME Muslims who [dishonestly] do not bring in the exception 5:33.


Note I understand 80% of Muslims are good, i.e. they are very human and respect basic human rights of others.
But there is nothing you can do about the 20% of Muslims [as with all humans] who are born as naturally evil prone [not their fault but due to their DNA] who will be naturally catalyzed, inspired and motivated [because they subconsciously want to avoid the threat and fears of going to Hell] by the tons of evil laden element which are ordained by Allah as immutable in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-21-2015 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:24 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,047 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Yes, you, I or any one can judge on a personal basis, but whatever is your judgment it has no divine authority over who ever you have judged.

If you judge the Muslims of ISIS to be sinful, your judgment has no impact nor can you stop them from continuing to do what they think is in accordance to Allah's command or guidance.
Therefore as long as the Muslims interpret their acts as in accordance with the Quran [& Hadiths] there is no one in the world who can argue and convince they are wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah.
Narrated / Authority Of: Abu Ghalib
that Abu Umamah said: “(The Khawarij) are the worst of the slain who are killed under heaven, and the best of the slain are those who were killed by them. Those (Khawarij) are the dogs of Hell. Those people were Muslims but they became disbelievers.” I said: “O Abu Umamah, is that your opinion?” He said: “Rather I heard it from the Messenger of Allah (saw).” (Hasan)

If ISIS is committing such acts they fall in to the category of (Khawarij) and Muhammad (PBUH) never used the word(Dogs of Hell) even for the unbelievers.

Quote:
The examples [I cannot list all] I have given are a samples of negative acts committed by the Kuffar that are a threat against [hinder] the practice by Muslims and progress of Islam which want to dominate the world [Allah stated Islam is superior over all other religions].


5:33 give the exception to the maxim 'kill one as if kill mankind' i.e. if there is 'corruption'.
The terms 'corruption' is very loose and include synonymous terms like 'mischief' 'wronged' 'hindering Muslims from practicing their religion' and anything that is negative and a threat to Islam.
you cannot make false imaginations to be truth and certainly cannot prove it from Quran. US never forbid Muslims to practice their religion even if they do in the future the people living in US are still innocent because there govt will do it not them, so People killed in 9/11 were innocent and no one can justify their killing from Quran unless someone Islamophobic like you want to believe by neglecting the facts.

Quote:
In the context of the whole of the Quran, the following constitute a threat [corruption. mischiefs, wronged, a threat, etc.] to Islam.


1. The very existence of Kuffar [potentially corrupt] is a threat to Islam.


2. Kuffar [infidels and non-Muslims] are worst than any creatures, they are apes, swines, cattle, ass and other terrible labels are condemned upon the kuffar. This is the dehumanization strategy to treat the kuffar as if they are like a piece of Sh;t which can be easily dispensed with.

3. There are hundreds of verses that warned against the threats of the kuffar.


4. The Quran reminded, 'travel around and beware of the evidence of how Allah has destroyed, demolished, kill, torture the kuffar of olden day because the disbelieved and are a threat to Islam.


5. Allah command Muslims to cast terrors onto the Kuffar.


6. There are the various verses of fighting and killing the kuffar with [very vague] and without conditions.


7. There is the command to subjugate the kuffar because they are worthless as a piece of 'sh;t' [note 2]


8. More that 55% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran is directed at condemning the kuffar.


9. There are so many other reasons with the most minor excuse where a Muslim can oppress and kill non-Muslims.


The above 1-9 thus considered even innocent Muslims as potential target as they are a threat to Islam. In addition most would have heard of Islam but chose not to convert, therefore are kuffar that can be killed for disbelieving.

With so many opportunities in the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS and other evil prone Muslims can easily be inspired and motivated to commit terrible evils and violence upon the kuffar and infidels [wherever you find them]. There is no need for them to resort to 5:32 to defend their acts.

Note I stated, the Muslims of ISIS have never used 5:33 to justify their killing of the kuffar and infidels [innocent of otherwise]. There are so many thousands of verses taken in context of the whole of Islam and the ethos of Muhammad to kill kuffars [regardless of innocent or not].
Point is no one in the Word can insist they are wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah as per the Quran.
First of all always provide evidence from Quran to prove your point. Second I will not take only your words because you are not truthful and any sensible person will not take your words as truth without proof. they cannot use 5:33 to justify killing of innocent people so its clear on this one. Now which verses you are talking about ? in fact there are none to be used for justification so do not shoot in air or provide the evidence.

Quote:
Note this critical point;
5:32 was raised by rational critiques who used it deceptively to counter the false claim that Islam is an absolutely religion of Peace, i.e. which insist 'kill one as if kill mankind.'
Bush, Obama, Cameron and many leaders kept insisting 'Islam is a religion of Peace' and they often quote 5:32 blindly and ignorantly [I say they are very stupid leaders in this case] not knowing they have been shortchanged [or duped] by SOME Muslims who [dishonestly] do not bring in the exception 5:33.


Note I understand 80% of Muslims are good, i.e. they are very human and respect basic human rights of others.
But there is nothing you can do about the 20% of Muslims [as with all humans] who are born as naturally evil prone [not their fault but due to their DNA] who will be naturally catalyzed, inspired and motivated [because they subconsciously want to avoid the threat and fears of going to Hell] by the tons of evil laden element which are ordained by Allah as immutable in the Quran.
well about your DNA bullsh:t, this is a racist comment and which is not surprising for me.

As I said earlier provide proof from Quran or otherwise be a man and accept your ignorance.
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:36 PM
 
2,090 posts, read 2,158,874 times
Reputation: 1996
I think it is hilarious that when all these ISIS terrorists and Islamic extremist suicide bombers (and every human being on earth who supports them) perform a so called act of martyrdom,...blowing themselves up and killing innocents.... thinking they will gain entrance into paradise, into heaven....they will instead be facing the Devil himself, and cast into the pits of hellfire....bahahaha!!!
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