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Yuseph seems to be laboring under the misconception that all relationships can be reduced to "you are either for me or against me". Besides what other posters have listed above me, there are many reasons why one could show that Jesus was not the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Bible. The biggest among these is that he failed. Some may disagree with this, and see Messiahship as a spiritual thing, while others could very easily point out that Messiahship was understood as being a physcial thing.
But that's a whole 'nother topic, as they say.
The fact of the matter is that reputable biblical scholars, those working intimately with the texts involved, have pretty conclusively shown that there was a little biased tampering going on in the Gospels when they were written, or later rewritten - however you want to see the Gospel tradition as evolving from Q and the other traditions.
The fact of the matter is that reputable biblical scholars, those working intimately with the texts involved, have pretty conclusively shown that there was a little biased tampering going on in the Gospels when they were written, or later rewritten - however you want to see the Gospel tradition as evolving from Q and the other traditions.
And others will say that quite a bit more than that was going on.
Some may go so far as to say the entire lot of it is pure fantasy.
And others will say that quite a bit more than that was going on.
Some may go so far as to say the entire lot of it is pure fantasy.
But, as they say: that's a whole 'nother topic.
Yes - I think calling it all 'fantasy' is just taking it too far, though.
Many biblical events have been corroborated in extra-biblical sources, and likewise many biblical events have been disproved in extra-biblical sources, while many biblical events have no extra-biblical corroborations at all. I touched on this briefly in my post about the Historian's Craft.
Now - did a son of God come down from Heaven to die on the Cross and magically defeat Death? Yes - I would call that fantasy.
Did a man live who tried to start a revolution in Judea, fail and end up dying on a cross, according to Jewish tradition a very shameful way to die (on a 'tree')? - I would call that a historical possibility.
The whole subject spawned quite the flurry of historical and scientific investigation over the past couple hundred years. The Quest for the Historical Jesus, by that eminent writer Albert Schweitzer, is still an excellent overview of the methods that had been tried up until his own time. He basically found that every generation of researchers found the historical Jesus they had set out to find heh heh! Some found a communist, some a socialist, some an ethical teacher, some an harbinger of the Eschaton....Schweitzer is an excellent read, for his prose (even in translation) is something to behold.
And others will say that quite a bit more than that was going on.
Some may go so far as to say the entire lot of it is pure fantasy.
But, as they say: that's a whole 'nother topic.
True. The one here is about whether it is true that the 'Jews killed Jesus'.
While that particular issue should be seen in context, of the 'big picture' about the way the Gospels, and the whole NT was written and put together, there seems strong reason for anyone who looks at the issue objectively to doubt that the Gospel account is either objective or accurate.
Setting aside discussion about various explanations as to why the trial (which is the basis of the Jewsdunnit belief) could be true, though it looks unhistorical in many ways, even if it was true, that would be no reason to blame the jews as a whole for the crucifixion, because the Sadducees were appointed by Roman governors to help them run their province.
Even if Matthew's remark which is reported by no other gospel was true, that only applies to the crowd that shouted it. And as the very reasonable Thom R argues, there is a rather nice pet theory that they were all shouting it with an OT scriptural time limitation in mind.
Through many stages short of unquestioning belief in an actually untenable theory that All Jews were to blame forever, which bespeaks a lack of objectivity if no a degree of race hatred (the dickering abut what 'Race' means in respect of Jewry being a red herring argument) it is doubtful, very arguable and in the end absolutely unfeasible that the jews really were, let alone are, responsible for killing Jesus.
It is high time that the Churches, if not the Christian nations, made that fact public.
So that's your secret Mr Greenspan , you guys live forever. That's why they say you killed Jesus(as).
Most bizarre misconception of both Jesus(as) and Judaism ever perpetrated. Where do they get that because some Jewish political leaders wanted Jesus(as) killed equates to the Jews killed him? Then again I guess people just like to equate the actions of some people to the actions of all.
I loved those 2000 year old man records (giving my age away). Reiner and Brooks were 2 of my favorite comedians. Those were the days when comedy was comedy.
In all truth...and I know many, most, have never heard it put like this...
But I think it was human nature that crucified Jesus....
And I think regardless of what nation he showed up in, by disrupting the established political power structure...he was asking for it...
It was human nature that crucified the lord...not the Jews...
He could of showed up in Germany or Ireland or Africa or Asia, and the establishment rulers would have done the same...
Here in the USA, as well as other places, assasinations of emerging leaders who threaten the establishment use to be, or is still, quite common...
Dr King, The Kenndies, Saddat (I think Egypt), Ghandi, Malcom X, Goerge Wallace (or at least attempted) Ronald Reagan (attempted)...and I could go on...
Bottom line...it was human nature that did it, not the Jews...
And I garuntee you, if Jesus came back today...all these political groups and religous establishments would expect Jesus to get in line with them, not them with him...
Try this on for size: there's a difference between not having wanted Jesus to be executed, and worshiping him.
I'm Jewish, and given all the history I've read, I don't see any legitimate reason for killing Jesus other than Rome's desire to eliminate someone who was, let's face it, being a pest to them (they were occupying Palestine at the time, and the local population wasn't exactly in love with them). Rome wanted him out of the way, and so they took steps to insure that's what happened.
That doesn't mean I worship Jesus. The religion that grew up in his name--he had nothing to do with it--doesn't happen to be mine.
To take the discussion back to the video for a minute...
1. Who were those, or the one, holding the camera and pestering those Jewish citizens?
2. Anyone who knows phycology would understand that that angry young man was spewing out or echoeing what he has been called all his life by 'Christians'...'A Js kller'...
And it's as if he was fed up, tired of being made to feel bad, rotton and guilty for the sins of the world...
You could tell the weight of the world was on their back, and they just let it all out...
He's probably been hearing all his life, since 3 years old, how he, personaly, was some how responsible for the death of Jesus...I can't imagine the burden that must carry...
Then on top of that, your in the middle east, sorounded by hostilities, war, missles, Palestinians that want your blood, then Christian groups coming to your country and making you feel even more guilty...
And notice how he called the camera man 'Nazi'....
That's very significant....very....
In other words he was feeling, feels, persicuted...and associates those who blame 'him' for the death of Christ, with anti sematism around the world...
He was tired of dealing with the guilt...he was tired of always being made to feel guilty and just let out, while drunk or drinking...
And the camera man could of very well been apart of a racist sect of Christanity...like the Christian Identity movement...or off shoot of the Aryon Nation...
Not all Christian groups are partial with Isreal...
There's a lot of very anti-semitic Christian groups in America also...that's when you start getting more on the Klan side of Christanity and similuar such groups...
I have no idea what that youth has been through up to that point...
But by listening to his response and words, you can tell what others have told him about himself his whole life...and it probably hasn't been good...
The camera man should of layed off...
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