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Yes because, at that time, they were Jews who converted to Christianity but, of course, they were circumcised etc, there were gentiles that converted to Christianity and, of course, they were not circumcised. So, there was a problem. Some Hebrew Christians said that gentiles must follow the whole Torah (including dietary laws etc..) and others not to follow the whole Torah. That is why the Synod of Jerusalem took place. We believe that Jesus is the final purpose of the Torah (Romans 10:4) that is why we don't follow the laws I mentioned. Many people read Romans 10:4 as "For Christ is the end of the law" but this translation is not true. I am Greek. Our Church (Eastern Orthodoxy) uses the ancient greek version of the Bible (koine greek) of both Old and New Testament. In Romans 10:4 the original text in greek says "τέλος"(telos) and τέλος in greek has 2 meanings. It can mean "the end" or "purpose". And if we look at Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:17 of what Jesus told about the Torah it doesn't mean that we exclude Torah and the prophets. Also, Paul said that Torah is a tutor for Christ, a shadow of the good things that are coming and shows us what is sin and what is not a sin (Romans 7:7,12, Galatians 3:24 and Hebrews 10:1).
Let us not forget that after the 7 year Jewish war when it became extremely unpopular to look like a Jew, and when Rome saw it's citizens becoming Christian, they were watching as Christian Romans began to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem and by common sense, this could not be allowed to continue. Gentile converts were going to synagogues with Jews as Christianity was authorized by Rome under the umbrella of Judaism and Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism. Then came Hadrian who really hated Jews and he hated gentiles practicing Jewish things worse than he hated Jews. Both Rome and Jews wanted the gentiles out of their synagogues and Rome was desperate to turn it's people away from anything that made them look Jewish. Gentiles who kept the feast of Tabernacles instead of Saturnalia were deemed evil because they practiced the ways of the Jews and they were seen so Jewish that they also had to pay the Jewish tax.
Jews became so hated that it became a dangerous thing to do anything that looked Jewish but when the great synagogue burned, it was the perfect vehicle to separate Christians from the Jewish synagogues and many Jews were behind it for obvious reasons.
The Greek Orthodox came up to make a deal with Hadrian where Hadrian would exile the Jews from Jerusalem and then to turn their synagogues over to the Greek Orthodox if they would now accept Saturnalia to then reject the feasts of God.
The Greek Orthodox were the first ones to make a stand against the commandments of God and his ways, the first ones who took advantage of Hadrian's hate in order to profit from the fall of Jews and their synagogues.
They led the way in not keeping the law and teaching others not to keep the law when Jesus said the opposite.
From these deals, Judaism was severely punished along with anyone who would follow the ways of God until it's people were deemed subhuman and treated about as fairly as dogs, worse than dogs. Constantine came up with laws against God and his people and Martin Luther came and re-enforced what had been done every century before him, and this was to persecute anyone who would follow the ways of God.
1 Kings, what the evil kingdom always does.
Jeroboamsaidin his heart,"Nowthe kingdomwill returnto the houseof David. 27"If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."…
Hey folks. In the discussions I've been having here at this forum, I've had many times where an answer I gave to a question led the thread down an alternate pathway than what the OP intended (sorry Mods, I'm not being bad on purpose). Somebody suggested I start a new thread called "Ask a Jew."
Who am I? I'm an Orthodox Jew living in a major city in America. Any views I present will be the views of a Torah Observant Jew - one who attempts to follow all 613 mitzvahs given in the Torah. I'm not a rabbi, but I learn Torah and Talmud every day of the week and have immersed myself in a life of Torah. There's no such thing as a person who knows "All" of the Torah, but for the purposes of this forum, I can give it a shot.
One quick thing, is I will not be online during the Jewish Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday night). So if you ask a question during that time, perhaps one of the fellow non observant Jews on this site can answer.
Speaking of non-observant Jews, their answers will sometimes differ from mine. It doesn't make mine right and theirs wrong - just different views.
My friends, ask away...
Moderator cut: off topic
I do actually have one serious question for you. Do Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews see one another as "not real Jews" the way some Christians see each other as "not real Christians"? How do you as an orthodox Jew see the other groups? Do you believe the way they are living their lives to be less pleasing to God than the way Orthodox Jews are living theirs? Before you answer, I realize that if someone is born of a Jewish mother, he is a "real Jew," so that's not what I'm asking. Maybe a better way of putting it would be: Do orthodox Jews consider Conservative and Reform Jews as not being "good Jews"?
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-04-2017 at 08:45 PM..
I do actually have one serious question for you. Do Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews see one another as "not real Jews" the way some Christians see each other as "not real Christians"? How do you as an orthodox Jew see the other groups? Do you believe the way they are living their lives to be less pleasing to God than the way Orthodox Jews are living theirs? Before you answer, I realize that if someone is born of a Jewish mother, he is a "real Jew," so that's not what I'm asking. Maybe a better way of putting it would be: Do orthodox Jews consider Conservative and Reform Jews as not being "good Jews"?
They see them as מינים(heretics) and כופרים(disbelievers) and the ones who only know about "Reform/Conservative Judaism" hence why they follow those movements because it was they were raised into as תינוק שנשבה(lost children which were led astray) that need to come to the real Judaism which is"Orthodox Judaism"
in short if they were born into it and do not know better they are seen as ignorant like little children who do not know any better and the ones that are aware of "Orthodox Judaism" as disbelievers and heretics
There is no singular opinion that can be ascribed to all "Orthodox" Jews. In fact, it would be tough to define what, exactly, is an Orthodox Jew as distinguished from individuals of other movements with similar ideas. Judaism is a continuum of interpretations and practices and while, in the gross sense, we can see differences between large-scale groupings (one group rejects the divine nature and infallibility of the torah text while the other embraces that) it is harder to see the distinctions when talking about an individual (a person who claims to subscribe to Orthodox Judaism in all he practices still has questions about the potential viability and validity of the documentary hypothesis).
So I, as an Orthodox Jew, don't look at other movements as not real or not good. I have problems with them and their understandings but I also see some real strengths that Orthodox Judaism lacks.
The first Jew, Avraham Avinu, lived 3,800 years ago. The Torah was given to the Jewish people 3,329 years ago. Reform and Conservative appeared about 130-190 years ago.
There is no substitute for Torah. When a person rejects, distorts, or replaces a Torah life with secular values, it deprives the soul of nourishment and closeness to Hashem which the soul yearns for.
It is simple. Jews follow Torah. For 3,800 years Jews have followed this path in serving G*d and we continue to do so today. Jewish history then and now shows the problems that occur when Jews reject Torah in favor of secular values, assimilation and intermarriage.
It is like discarding a precious gem of immense value for a plastic trinket.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-05-2017 at 08:33 AM..
The first Jew, Avraham Avinu, lived 3,800 years ago. The Torah was given to the Jewish people 3,329 years ago. Reform and Conservative appeared about 130-190 years ago.
I wouldn't say that Avraham Avinu was the first Jew...More like Yitzchak...Or possibly those at Har Sinai...
The Torah was given to the Jewish people 3,329 years ago. Reform and Conservative appeared about 130-190 years ago.
It wasn't until the Elightenment came about the Orthodoxy formed as a movement. It is only slightly older that the Reform movement.
Prior to the early 1800's, there was only Judaism; and the beginnings of the Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative movements can all be found in how those Jews understood Torah and practiced their religion.
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