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Thanks to all for continuing to clarify this discussion.
It would still appear that "messianic Jews" who believe in J.C. are converts, not Jewish. They might be Jewish by the old racial ideas ("Jewish blood/Jewish mother") as I am "half-Jewish" by the Nuremburg Racial Laws of 1935 via my father/his parents) but not Jewish by belief. (To make sure I'm clear, I don't believe in racial Jewishness, but it's pounded into my head by history and my father saying, "If Hitler came back, you'd be Jewish enough" while I got no religious or cultural instruction).
I am still think that those who call themselves "messianic Jews" with a belief in J.C. or a mission to "save" other Jews to accept J.C. are one shred to the right of southern Baptists and others who see conversion as part of prophecies leading to the second coming (although I gather Armeggedon is required first?) and these people vote and hold office and make decisions about the U.S. and the Middle East.
Shall I say this concerns me.
I highlighted the key word of your statement. These Jews for Jesus types have a defined strategy of proselytizing and converting Jews away from the religion of their birth, in order to turn them into Chrsitians (albeit with a fancy titles like "Completed Jew," or "Messianic Jew.").
Of course we Jews have a strategy as well: To keep to ourselves. Keep a low profile. Keep the 613 mitzvahs in the Torah, and let others be free to be who they want to be.
"Completed" Jew? What a slap in the face, and so condescending that anyone would say that. Your last paragraph says it all - we're doing what we are commanded to do; not sure why others just can't leave us alone.
We just celebrated purim - while theres some question as to the profile Mordechai kept, he hardly kept to himself. I would say thousands of years of Jews being royal physicians, prominent merchants, etc, etc would show we have a tradition of being actively engaged in the societies we live in.
Perhaps you only meant that we don't proselytize. Thats different. (though there are grey areas even there)
Perhaps it can be said that we keep to ourselves religiously speaking. We don't look to the outside Christian world for approval, only to Hashem. We interact with the world and we are to be a light unto the nations, but we don't pray with Christians and we don't merge with their agenda.
Messianic Jews are Jewish who believe in Jesus Christ as messiah. Yes, they are Jewish and NOT Christians. Of course many Jews are angry about it and say that they are not Jewish any more and became Christians, which is not the case.
I would not say we are angry. To most of us, it is very sad and unfortunate that they engage in these practices. It makes my heart sink when I hear of these matters. I am sorry to offend you, but that is the truth.
Perhaps it can be said that we keep to ourselves religiously speaking. We don't look to the outside Christian world for approval, only to Hashem. We interact with the world and we are to be a light unto the nations, but we don't pray with Christians and we don't merge with their agenda.
I would challenge that too, in a modern context. Many of us do ecumenical services for thanksgiving, we welcome gentile guests to bar/bat mitzvah ceremonies, and we invite gentile friends to shabbos dinners. This is a chance to give our fellow citizens a better idea of what we are really about - which can reduce the hatred that comes from ignorance ( I for one, after the events of the 20th century, will not leave the issue of antisemitism and Jewish survival in Hashems hands,unless "Hashems hands" is interpreted to include our own) , and, given the reality of intermarriage, can plant the seeds of openness to conversion to Judaism in those situations where it really matters to us.
I for one, after the events of the 20th century, will not leave the issue of antisemitism and Jewish survival in Hashems hands,unless "Hashems hands" is interpreted to include our own.
And Neville Chamberlain thought appeasement would keep Germany at bay...
BBD, we'll just have to disagree on this point. I do not believe Jews do any better in the world when we let others see who we are and what we do. Remember, we are the ones who remind the world, by our very existence, that Hashem controls EVERYTHING. To think that we control ANYTHING against Hashem's will, is well (I'm not gonna say it to a fellow Yid)
And Neville Chamberlain thought appeasement would keep Germany at bay...
BBD, we'll just have to disagree on this point. I do not believe Jews do any better in the world when we let others see who we are and what we do. Remember, we are the ones who remind the world, by our very existence, that Hashem controls EVERYTHING. To think that we control ANYTHING against Hashem's will, is well (I'm not gonna say it to a fellow Yid)
Someone who walks into traffic expecting hashem to help him is a fool, and will not get Hashem's help. Someone who does not pursue pragmatic actions for jewish survival, whether those involve strength and arms, or conciliation, is similarly a fool.
As for comparing my gentile friends and neighbors to Nazi Germany, and comparing inviting someone to shabbos dinner or to a bat mitzvah ceremony to betrayal of an ally, and handing the sudetenland to the Nazis, - well I don't want to discuss what that is either.
You would do well to note that the Aguda in eastern Europe had NO compunctions about negotiating with gentile governments, and often with antisemitic elements in the eastern european politics that the jewish left (the Zionists and left yiddishists) disdained. Today, ultra O politicians are happy to work with gentile pols from Brooklyn to Rockland County, though often in ways that leave a sour taste in the mouths of ordinary gentile citizens(and non orthodox jews)
Just to get back on track, I'll repeat that Jews do best when we stay out of the spotlight. We're hated and resented no matter what we do, so out of sight out of mind is our best bet. And that's a proactive policy of survival that we can control.
Just to get back on track, I'll repeat that Jews do best when we stay out of the spotlight. We're hated and resented no matter what we do, so out of sight out of mind is our best bet. And that's a proactive policy of survival that we can control.
Then to stay out of the spotlight, maybe the Lawrence school board should resign? (a Long Island public school district with an O dominated school board that has elicited controversy in their choice of excess schools to be sold to Yeshivas) Or dissolve Kiryas Joel, which has created many controversies and drawn lots of attention? Or the chabadniks who never miss a chance to have a public menorah lighting, to hobnob with pols, etc.
Of course true antisemites will hate, whether we do things like that, or whether we are all people who advance humanity. Advancing the good of humanity is good on its own grounds. I know many gentiles who do NOT hate us, and are impressed by the good that we do - naturally we dont all experience the same things.
Because ALL Jews pray for that to happen, but the Messianic Jews believe Jesus WAS the Messiah and look forward to his "2nd coming".
But I beleive that Jesus was not the messiah, and I look forward to the first and only coming of the messiah. And THAT is the jewish approach to the messiah, ergo, I am a messianic Jew and the jews for Jesus are NOT.
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