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My impression is that most C rabbis will not refuse to work with a would be convert, but will consider a warning about the problems of antisemitism, the difficulties encountered by Jews by Choice, . . .
What are some of the difficulties that I might encounter as a convert, things I might not have considered or wouldn't know about as a non Jew?
What are some of the difficulties that I might encounter as a convert, things I might not have considered or wouldn't know about as a non Jew?
Some social reticence from some born Jews (though the rabbinate has long oposed that, and by now the demographics in any non-O community (excluding maybe some aging C communities in NYC) are such thats probably not a big deal.
Relating to the national/ethnic aspects of Jewish identity and Jewish communities - including the many people who feel intensely Jewish, who are less observant than the Jews by choice in their communities, and who may find the observance, and esp the spiritual intensity of some Jews by choice (who were, after all, often motivated by spiritual seeking) offputting.
The emphasis on family and extended family in some social contexts - which can leave someone who has no Jewish family feeling a bit on the outside, I guess. Also of course things that come up with regard to non-Jewish family members (no formal Jewish ceremony for a non-Jewish parent who has died, for example, or limits on participation of non Jewish relatives in a wedding ceremony, or the convert's childrens ceremonies of bar mitzvah)
Im not really an expert - thats why talking to a rabbi, esp one with experience with Jews by choice in his/her community, is the best.
Brooklynborndad,
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I was going to post the same sentiments last night, but decided not to post
Out of respect.
I encountered nothing but fellowship from the Conservative Rabbi who guided me to the congregants and families of a certain congregation.
it was not until AFTER I converted did I experience much of what you just posted. The off putting portion that is.
Culturally, speaking Jews by choice miss out. "Growing up Jewish" is foreign.
What are some of the difficulties that I might encounter as a convert, things I might not have considered or wouldn't know about as a non Jew?
You'll want to quit many times. There will be a time where you won't fit into the gentile world anymore, yet you don't feel the Jews are accepting you. You have to pay your dues. You'll be corrected over your pronounciation many times, and sometimes, you'll feel completely humiliated and stupid. (Case in point: we were at an Oneg once, and someone said something about hummus as we were getting something on our plates. I said, "This is hummus?" An elderly man, who I thought was my friend, screamed irritably, "No, it's not hummus! It's CHOMETZ, meaning it'sNOT FIT TO EAT!" People suspected it was made with Lipton Onion Soup which in the past had not been made for Passover. It turned out to be not the case; it was fit to eat, but people got edgy).
People will be suspicious of you at first when you go to services. Services are in Hebrew; it's hard to follow along and sing until you've been there at least 6 months.
Even after you convert, some occasionally (not anyone here) will throw up in your face that you're a convert. If you don't convert via Orthodoxy, some will say (and they're right) that you're not "halachically" Jewish. (That's why I have a big heart for Theflipflop here. I never once got an attitude like that from him. We both know what the deal is, and he doesn't bring it up).
You'll learn Jewish history and read Hebrew in front of someone that grew up reading and speaking it, and most likely speaks 5 other languages, before you're deemed okay to start conversion. Again, expect to feel embarrassed as you do damage to beautiful prayer Hebrew in the meantime.
Then, after conversion, you're officially Jewish, and it's much better. Being Jewish is expensive, though. Temple dues, building repairs, kids' study, and books, books and more books. You have to think on your feet, be smart, have thick skin, and anti-Semitism will enrage you even more than it did before.
It'll take you awhile to pass for "born" Jewish. Social contexts, Hebrew, etc. - you can't fake it. People will know you're a convert for awhile. You search out the people that are kind and it doesn't matter to.
You won't win any points in a spirited Torah discussion anytime soon because you have a lifetime of study to catch up on before you can even begin an intelligent conversation with someone who has studied hours and hours a day, many days a week before you even thought of studying Torah. You'll have to listen more than you speak for a good long time.
Then, one day at services, you're praying with everyone, and someone, a born Jew, can't follow along because she was never taught Hebrew. You help her find her place when she asks, and she turns to you at the end of the service, sincerely, how nice it was to meet you, how good your Hebrew is, and thanks you for helping her. She doesn't know or care if you're a convert or not, and she doesn't ask. To her, you're a Jew davening with her and you helped save her from the inconvenience of constantly getting lost while she was trying to follow along in her prayers. What a mitzvah.
Then you know you've arrived as a Jew. Is it worth it? Every molecule in my body screams, "Yes. It is".
I have found that in the Orthodox community, there are quite a few converts. I happen to live in a frum community where there are lots and lots of ba'ale t'shuvah (Jews born rather secular who have become more observant during their lifetimes), and for the most part, the ba'ale t'shuvah's and the converts have a lot in common. We've both had to make major changes in our lives, possibly have lost the respect of friends and family along the way (yes, I know that sounds crazy), and boy do we miss those treif restaurants. I think it's for these similarities, that converts do so well in my community.
I can't speak for communities like Boro Park, Monsey and Lakewood where the majority of Orthodox Jews are FFB (frum from birth, i.e., born into religious Jewish homes), but in my town, once somebody goes through a proper halachic conversion, they are a full fledged Jew, and are considered as if they too stood with us at Mount Sinai to recieve the Torah from Hashem.
From what I can tell, there are a good number of converts here in this forum, although I cannot see that any of them went through an Orthodox conversion. To Chana's point in the post above, these folks should be admired for the commitment they have made to this point, and who knows what the future holds? Although their conversions are not universally recognized as kosher by all Jews, for me personally, I still consider them to be "choshuv" members of k'lal yisroel, even if I cannot count them towards a minyan.
You'll want to quit many times. There will be a time where you won't fit into the gentile world anymore, yet you don't feel the Jews are accepting you. You have to pay your dues. You'll be corrected over your pronounciation many times, and sometimes, you'll feel completely humiliated and stupid. (Case in point: we were at an Oneg once, and someone said something about hummus as we were getting something on our plates. I said, "This is hummus?" An elderly man, who I thought was my friend, screamed irritably, "No, it's not hummus! It's CHOMETZ, meaning it'sNOT FIT TO EAT!" People suspected it was made with Lipton Onion Soup which in the past had not been made for Passover. It turned out to be not the case; it was fit to eat, but people got edgy).
People will be suspicious of you at first when you go to services. Services are in Hebrew; it's hard to follow along and sing until you've been there at least 6 months.
Even after you convert, some occasionally (not anyone here) will throw up in your face that you're a convert. If you don't convert via Orthodoxy, some will say (and they're right) that you're not "halachically" Jewish. (That's why I have a big heart for Theflipflop here. I never once got an attitude like that from him. We both know what the deal is, and he doesn't bring it up).
You'll learn Jewish history and read Hebrew in front of someone that grew up reading and speaking it, and most likely speaks 5 other languages, before you're deemed okay to start conversion. Again, expect to feel embarrassed as you do damage to beautiful prayer Hebrew in the meantime.
Then, after conversion, you're officially Jewish, and it's much better. Being Jewish is expensive, though. Temple dues, building repairs, kids' study, and books, books and more books. You have to think on your feet, be smart, have thick skin, and anti-Semitism will enrage you even more than it did before.
It'll take you awhile to pass for "born" Jewish. Social contexts, Hebrew, etc. - you can't fake it. People will know you're a convert for awhile. You search out the people that are kind and it doesn't matter to.
You won't win any points in a spirited Torah discussion anytime soon because you have a lifetime of study to catch up on before you can even begin an intelligent conversation with someone who has studied hours and hours a day, many days a week before you even thought of studying Torah. You'll have to listen more than you speak for a good long time.
Then, one day at services, you're praying with everyone, and someone, a born Jew, can't follow along because she was never taught Hebrew. You help her find her place when she asks, and she turns to you at the end of the service, sincerely, how nice it was to meet you, how good your Hebrew is, and thanks you for helping her. She doesn't know or care if you're a convert or not, and she doesn't ask. To her, you're a Jew davening with her and you helped save her from the inconvenience of constantly getting lost while she was trying to follow along in her prayers. What a mitzvah.
Then you know you've arrived as a Jew. Is it worth it? Every molecule in my body screams, "Yes. It is".
thats lovely. Thanks for that.
You do seem to have found a particularly knowledgeable community though.
You do seem to have found a particularly knowledgeable community though.
Thank you. I thought it might be too explicit, but I spoke from the heart.
Yes, the community I found was wonderful. My Rabbi studied in Germany and had about 4 doctorates and really did speak 6 languages. I moved, though, and really miss them a lot. Change is always tough but we learn to be flexible.
ognized as kosher by all Jews, for me personally, I still consider them to be "choshuv" members of k'lal yisroel, even if I cannot count them towards a minyan.
You couldn't count me in your minyan even if I was Orthodox . I appreciate your kind thoughts, though. They are much appreciated.
As a side note, I went looking for Kosher wine tonight. Boone's Farm wine was under the Kosher sign. Hmmmmmm.......
You couldn't count me in your minyan even if I was Orthodox . I appreciate your kind thoughts, though. They are much appreciated.
Sometimes I find it so funny how some Jewish women are so militant about wanting to be counted towards a minyan. Nearly all the Orthodox Jewish women I know would HATE IT if they were counted towards a minyan. Because that would mean they were OBLIGATED to attend minyan - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. And if you only knew how many Orthodox men wish they WERE NOT counted towards a minyan, because the obligation and responsibility to daven in shul, with 10 men - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, is flat-out exhausting at times.
Sometimes I find it so funny how some Jewish women are so militant about wanting to be counted towards a minyan. Nearly all the Orthodox Jewish women I know would HATE IT if they were counted towards a minyan. Because that would mean they were OBLIGATED to attend minyan - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. And if you only knew how many Orthodox men wish they WERE NOT counted towards a minyan, because the obligation and responsibility to daven in shul, with 10 men - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, is flat-out exhausting at times.
The obligation, AFAIK is to daven 3 times a day - not to daven in shul (or even with a minyan) 3 times a day. Go to any modern O shul, and AFAICT the folks making the daily minyans, even on Monday and Thursday, are a small group of regulars, plus people needing to say Kaddish. The tendency to go to make a point of davening with a minyan 21 times a week is for the particularly pious. In fact its my strong impression (from inlaws who made a point to get shul while traveling BECAUSE they had to say kaddish - from people davening without a minyan on airplanes, etc) that even many haredim will daven alone when circumstances require.
And of course lots of observant men both C and O fail in their obligation to daven 3 times a day period - and are not stricken by lightning, quaking at their fate in the afterlife, or feeling they have angered hashem. The view of what obligation entails, and the desirability of not being obligated, though it has support in much jewish metahalachic literature, is not the universal view of (religious) Am Israel.
Nonetheless - most of the C rabbinate is reluctant to impose a blanket obligation on all women - in part to avoid putting more people in the position of being in violation. The mainstream opinion (following the Roth tshuva) is that only women who voluntarily obligate themselves are bound by postive timebound mitzvot. In theory that means only those should be counted in a minyan - but in practice asking individuals if they are or not, when its time to daven, is not done. (just as if a man who is a Jew by Choice shows up, we do not interrogate them on the nature of the conversion ceremony) Also of course there are SOME C poskim who go beyond the Roth tshuva to a more fully egalitarian halachic opinion - that all Jewish women are so bound today - they do not find the Roth position viable, either halachically, or in terms of what it does to the egalitarian nature of the movement.
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. I appreciate your kind thoughts, though. They are much appreciated.
