My wife's brother is getting married and she can't stop crying (food, marry)
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we don't gain Jews by discarding or watering down halacha, that is how we lose Jews
kiruv is successful because observant Jews show us how to be observant Jews
not because they water down the halacha and worry about hurting anyone's feelings
it is not a social club, it is not a place that is supposed to make me feel warm and welcome.
it shows me how to draw close to God, daven, study Torah, fulfill the mitzvot with joy.
when those are done in an authentic manner, they take a person way out of their comfort zone.
if it came easy it would be of very little worth or value to me.
kiruv: outreach by Orthodox Judaism to reach out to non-Orthodox Jews
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-05-2015 at 10:35 PM..
I was raised ultra-reform, and my parents had the wisdom to teach me that interfaith marriage was unacceptable. But sadly that wasn't enough, as their other kids still married goyim. Without a foundation in Torah, there is nothing to stop a Jew from marrying a goy.
It is always shocking to me when I see a lack of Passion, it's funny because I always make assumptions about people. I hear them speak of God but the majority really surprise me if I ask them about the Law or the Temple or how much they read the Torah.
I always assume people read and study the bible at least 20 hours a week, but as it turns out, most people just have no passion to study that much, I don't think the average person cares about Moses or keeping lineages nowadays.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 09-05-2015 at 10:39 PM..
Everybody has a right to their opinion but it is truly sad to see at times how far this goes. The Orthodox are importent but at times they certainly do not practice what they preach. Other than following 'Halacha" that is.
IMO, there is also a lot of bigotry involved. They never seem to consider that Reform Jews out there might be one of the "lost souls" accidentally born into into a Non-Jewish body. Maybe these people had no Orthodox synagogue available or their soul was not quite ready to "convert" Orthodox yet these people greatly want to be with the Jewish people, of course.
Or, what about people whoose ancestors had to convert to another religion? They might not know they are Jewish but feel that there is "something." But there is no proof so unless they have an Orthodox conversion they are excluded even though they are Jewish? I think that is horrible. Most of these people will not go the Orthodox route because it is extreme to them even if they feel they are Jewish and belong with the Jewish people. Do you have any idea how hurtful it must be for them to hear that they are "not Jewish" even after a conversion in a non-Orthodox synagogue?
Just to make sure that people are aware: Not all Orthodox Jews are like this. In my experience, they might not openly state their opinion in a group but there are Orthodox who see value in Reform/Conservative conversions and treat these converts with great respect, mainly for the reason I gave above. They look at the whole person. One who has seen in reality what I said above and felt for the person tends to think differently.
The same is true for issues like homosexuality
we don't gain Jews by discarding or watering down halacha, that is how we lose Jews
kiruv is successful because observant Jews show us how to be observant Jews
not because they water down the halacha and worry about hurting anyone's feelings
it is not a social club, it is not a place that is supposed to make me feel warm and welcome.
it shows me how to draw close to God, daven, study Torah, fulfill the mitzvot with joy.
when those are done in an authentic manner, they take a person way out of their comfort zone.
if it came easy it would be of very little worth or value to me.
kiruv: outreach by Orthodox Judaism to reach out to non-Orthodox Jews
If your first interaction with Orthodox Judaism was a dinner table discussion about the laws of yayin nesech, what should be done with a mechallel shabbat b'farhesia, and whether it is permitted to say Amen to a bracha recited by a Reform rabbi, I don't think you would be frum. I'm guessing that you saw the beauty and warmth of a family preparing for and celebrating kabbalat shabbat and the rich family traditions that date back generations and generations that brought you in and allowed you to explore the depth of the Torah and Judaism as a whole.
It's the way you sell Orthodox Judaism that matters. Not every frum person should be talking to non-Orthodox and secular Jews. If you know that a large portion of this forum is composed of non-Orthodox converts and you're talking about how it is a tragedy to the Jewish people if one of them were to marry a Jewish person secular or not, then you are being tactless and insensitive.
Seems like something but I am Cherokee, I think it's a tribal yearning to be a part of a heritage, a longing for an ancient ancestry.
You have to speak to these people in person to understand that it is not merely a tribal yearning "of some kind " Who would want to be part of a persecuted minority unless there is some unexplainable attachment? Sometimes this goes back as far as childhood; wanting to only eat kosher or asking to celebrate Jewish holidays. When these people get older it can cause them great emotional pain that nobody "wants them." They are confused as to why they feel like this in the first place; maybe even wish they would not have these feelings.
Orthodox Jews in particular should read up on this topic because I am sure they do not want to hurt a Jewish soul yet they cannot and/or will not accept them either unless they take the huge step to convert Orthodox. But most people cannot go this far, at least not without some first steps in Reform/Conservative. They are open and encouraging which makes them feel
welcome. The Orthodox mostly discourage these people and give little space to explore Judaism freely and experiment with it to find their right way.
She's not Jewish. Her mother had a reform conversion before she was born. Her grandmother lived and died a goy.
Reform Jews are Jewish if their mother and grandmother are born Jewish. You need to stop that nonsense trying to paint me as saying Reform Jews are not Jewish just because they are reform.
It is NOT your place to judge them. If they don't have a kratsmere tree in their home and follow judaism at their own comfort level then they are secular jews. Better to be some level of jewish than none at all.
There is no obligation to make this nasty angry Judaism forum a kiruv forum. The standard in the Judaism forum is crankiness. In that guise, I'm not going to attempt any form of kiruv. Just the truth folks. It's an anonymous forum.
However, when posters here demonstrate an open mind towards Halacha, they do get treated differently. Look for my posts in this forum to 1+1=3 and JB from NC, both posters who are not frum but still highly respectful towards Halacha, and you will see a big difference in how I treat them. The rest of you are lost sheep, too angry and set in your progressive ways to be helped.
Actually, Rosends, you probably don't know what you're talking about when it comes to making Aliyah. It's actually easier to get citizenship as a Masorti (Conservative) or Reform convert, than as an Orthodox convert. The reason is that like in this situation, the Ultra Orthodox (Haredim) get involved in deciding whether the Orthodox's conversion was kosher.
Well Tikva, that probably is nicely placed. I do know what I'm talking about generally, but in terms of conversions and aliyah, I made a mistake. Someone with a reform conversion from outside of Israel can make aliyah but might not, for other religious functions and contexts, be considered Jewish. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful presentation.
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