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I can understand developers and builders advertising to encourage home ownership, but NAR? They don't build anything. They make their money from the buying and selling of others. It's like when brokerage houses like E-Trade would advertise stocks to consumers during the tech boom. Curious parallel.
The problem with scalpers (realtors, investment firms, ratings agencies etc..) is that their interests are not aligned with their customers. This clash of interests creates all sorts of strange distortions, like when a toxic-waste CMO issue gets a AAA rating only to see it default 6 months later.
That's why I believe it would be better structure real estate services as a flat fee vs. a commission, although admittedly it's hard to charge a fee for advising someone not to buy a house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt
You suggest they should not promote buying RE because one might lose money?
As I said I to consider it a bit overly done. I often dislike NAR ads..they tend to oversimplfy complex matters. NAR will however argue these are sales ads and the media does not allow nuanced discussion. They will claim that should go on with your agent. And, if you pick a good agent, it will.
The ad I posted is a relatively current ad that I consider reasonable. A little puffery but some pretty reasonable views.
I would observe that those who bought resale in the second half of 2007 and did so wisely are in reasonable shape and will be fine in a couple of years. I would particularly include a thing NAR won't say...stay away from new build unless the builders are really hungry. YOu don't have a real market while the builder is in control.
Absolutely not true. Real estate professionals (as well as mortgage professionals) are privvy to many tools and resources of the trade that the general public has absolutely no access to. Furthermore, if you honestly think that the average citizen could become half as proficient as many RE agents are simply by doing some online research you are, again, sadly mistaken. I have seen what the pre-licensing study curriculum looks like. I have seen some of the questions on the test. I will tell you right now that being a knowledgable RE agent is no easy task, and unless you actually go through the 90 hr pre-licensing course there is no way that you will have even a small grasp on what a RE agents job consists of. It is a substantial amount more than CMA's and fill-in-the-blank contracts.
Actually, I have gone through the courses and the majority of todays teaching is about how to take the test and answer the questions on the real estate exam. This is the same as a contractors license or other industries where they teach you how to pass the licensing tests but nothing in practical knowledge. Its just like kids cheating on their video games to bypass levels by getting the codes to the game. Has anyone taken a driving school class after receiving a ticket?? Can anyone really state these on line classes make them better drivers?? Those who pass know almost nothing about the industry and thus the need for them to aquire a mentor where ever they hang their shingle. I have seen way to many newbie agents asking me what they need to do next after taking the exam. They are afraid if they do not take on a mentor they will be swimming in documentation hell or frightened they may do something illegal. Heck they don't even learn how to fill out the Brokerage house specific documentation. If these courses were so complete why then is there such a need and in many cases a demand from the brokerage house for the newbie to take on a mentor?? Sorry but I have been in this business for over 35 years and I stay on top of everything I can. 90 hours of class and home study will not even begin to teach the new agent even the first steps of how to protect their clients, understand shifting markets, recognize and analize correctly market trends, or provide any sort of reasonable return to their clients who pay any where from 4 to 6 percent of the sales price. And please don't tell me the brokerage commision is not on the buyers side as it is built into the sales price one way or another. And PLEEEASE don't tell me the majority of brokers or agents earn their splits at these high market rates for real estate.
I do not doubt you do your job honestly and ethically. I have stated there are agents and brokers who are competent and better suited for helping a buyer or seller make their decisions. Unfortunately there are very few of those out there and ultimately all agents are looking to score a commision. If there is an iffy situation on a piece of property I would be willing to wager the agent will still try to make the sale. Those advertisements previously shown are exactly the type of wholesale hogwash many if not most agents as well as their industry are willing to peddle.
Again, if one chooses to be a sucker then expect the worse however if you study for yourself the ins and outs of real estate then there is more money to be made in this industry then almost any other. For homeowners, leveraged buying of your primary residence is fantastic as long as you are aware of the market trend, purchase correctly, analyze the difference between owning and renting and how it affects you in the long term regardless of market conditions. Merely looking at an industry graph showing the market has steadily climbed since the begining of man is just a starting point for proper decision making when it comes to purchasing a home.
If only someone would start a Youtube sight for those looking to sell or buy property and bypass the MLS entirely we might actually be able to get this market back on track but when the buyer is usually paying a built in 4 - 6 % commission and then when they sell another 4 - 6% commission
then value vs. cost becomes even more skewed. Sorry agents but most of you just were not worth the value we paid you. Now in a much trickier market you really might have to work to earn your pay. You might actually have to go out and not only find value for your clients but prove why the value is there. You might actually have to again go out and show
100 clients homes before you actually present an offer. And now you might actually have to track the entire process of the transaction including financing, inspections, signature cycles, escrow performance, etc. to assure the deal goes smoothly with few or no snags which if they do come up you will deal with in the most expeditious manner. Oh wait, that is what you were supposed to be doing in the first place.
FOD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishordie
Actually, I have gone through the courses and the majority of todays teaching is about how to take the test and answer the questions on the real estate exam. This is the same as a contractors license or other industries where they teach you how to pass the licensing tests but nothing in practical knowledge. Its just like kids cheating on their video games to bypass levels by getting the codes to the game. Has anyone taken a driving school class after receiving a ticket?? Can anyone really state these on line classes make them better drivers?? Those who pass know almost nothing about the industry and thus the need for them to aquire a mentor where ever they hang their shingle. I have seen way to many newbie agents asking me what they need to do next after taking the exam. They are afraid if they do not take on a mentor they will be swimming in documentation hell or frightened they may do something illegal. Heck they don't even learn how to fill out the Brokerage house specific documentation. If these courses were so complete why then is there such a need and in many cases a demand from the brokerage house for the newbie to take on a mentor?? Sorry but I have been in this business for over 35 years and I stay on top of everything I can. 90 hours of class and home study will not even begin to teach the new agent even the first steps of how to protect their clients, understand shifting markets, recognize and analize correctly market trends, or provide any sort of reasonable return to their clients who pay any where from 4 to 6 percent of the sales price. And please don't tell me the brokerage commision is not on the buyers side as it is built into the sales price one way or another. And PLEEEASE don't tell me the majority of brokers or agents earn their splits at these high market rates for real estate.
I do not doubt you do your job honestly and ethically. I have stated there are agents and brokers who are competent and better suited for helping a buyer or seller make their decisions. Unfortunately there are very few of those out there and ultimately all agents are looking to score a commision. If there is an iffy situation on a piece of property I would be willing to wager the agent will still try to make the sale. Those advertisements previously shown are exactly the type of wholesale hogwash many if not most agents as well as their industry are willing to peddle.
Again, if one chooses to be a sucker then expect the worse however if you study for yourself the ins and outs of real estate then there is more money to be made in this industry then almost any other. For homeowners, leveraged buying of your primary residence is fantastic as long as you are aware of the market trend, purchase correctly, analyze the difference between owning and renting and how it affects you in the long term regardless of market conditions. Merely looking at an industry graph showing the market has steadily climbed since the begining of man is just a starting point for proper decision making when it comes to purchasing a home.
If only someone would start a Youtube sight for those looking to sell or buy property and bypass the MLS entirely we might actually be able to get this market back on track but when the buyer is usually paying a built in 4 - 6 % commission and then when they sell another 4 - 6% commission
then value vs. cost becomes even more skewed. Sorry agents but most of you just were not worth the value we paid you. Now in a much trickier market you really might have to work to earn your pay. You might actually have to go out and not only find value for your clients but prove why the value is there. You might actually have to again go out and show
100 clients homes before you actually present an offer. And now you might actually have to track the entire process of the transaction including financing, inspections, signature cycles, escrow performance, etc. to assure the deal goes smoothly with few or no snags which if they do come up you will deal with in the most expeditious manner. Oh wait, that is what you were supposed to be doing in the first place.
FOD
This is kind of my point though. There is no way, IMO, that the majority of the people out there have the knowledge nor the tools to do what RE agents do, or are supposed to do. A little online research is not going to change that. Without proper education and training, as you pointed out, even licensed RE agents are inadequately prepared to actually perform the functions that are required of them. I'm in no way defending RE agents as a whole, but to condemn an entire industry and make claims about the average joe's ability to do a job that many with "training" can't properly do is rather irresponsible and somewhat irksome. I am in full agreement with you regarding the fact that many of the RE agents out there, and mortgage agents as well, are either not properly trained, or have zero concience or sense of responsibility toward their clients. I'm certainly not defending the NAR, neither am I defending RE agents commission structures. I just wanted to point out the innaccuracies in sherrif's post.
FWIW, my wife decided to become a RE agent and the study material she received is pretty in depth. She got it from Key Realty School and to be honest she and I were a bit overwhelmed at the amount of material that was sent. I've made it clear that if she wishes to be succesful that she needs to become truly educated (not that I really needed to tell her that, she always works hard at being the best at whatever it is that she does), and she is striving for nothing less.
I can understand developers and builders advertising to encourage home ownership, but NAR? They don't build anything. They make their money from the buying and selling of others. It's like when brokerage houses like E-Trade would advertise stocks to consumers during the tech boom. Curious parallel.
NAR advertising is general and to encourage the use of a Realtor versus not doing so. No reason why a trade group should not try to convince the public that they offer a valuable service and are better than the other options. Sounds reasonably rational to me.
Quote:
The problem with scalpers (realtors, investment firms, ratings agencies etc..) is that their interests are not aligned with their customers. This clash of interests creates all sorts of strange distortions, like when a toxic-waste CMO issue gets a AAA rating only to see it default 6 months later.
Realtors are not remotely scalpers..try again. Every definiition of which I am aware invovles an individual who takes possession of an item to resell it. You can see I think why that would not apply to an RE Agent.
There is on occasion a conflict of interest between the Client and Agency. It occurs in all agency relationships not just real estate. There are ways to handle it. If an agent is working for his own interest rather than the client he is violating his duties. It happens but not very often.
Quote:
That's why I believe it would be better structure real estate services as a flat fee vs. a commission, although admittedly it's hard to charge a fee for advising someone not to buy a house.
You may well believe. Some people believe almost anything. But you have put forth no argument that would support your belief.
I can put forth any number of payment systems that would vastly improve the system. Having all buyers pay their own fees would be a good start. And payment made at least partially without success would be another.
Thank you for your honest approach to this subject. However, since I also do consulting (For FREE) on divorce and NO I am not a family law practicioner, I have discovered the law is not so imposing or difficult to learn. The internet has become
a time and money saving device for those looking to divorce without the enormous cost, both metal and monetary, associated with legal council. Yes, YOU can get divorced without an attorney and yes it is a bit imposing at first but it is well worth it and it takes much less than 90 hours to learn what to do.
I disagree as to the amount of learning an individual has to undertake in order to sell or purchase a property with minimal or no help from an agent. After one learns about disclosure laws and templated sales or purchase agreement forms available on line and who's responsibile for which part of the transaction a good and qualified escrow agent, who gets a small fraction of what an agent gets and is paid for anyways in most states, can get you through the transaction. Much of the legal crap is for the protection of the Brokerage house and agent not the individual selling or buying the property. And why would the Brokerage/agent need so much protection??? That is not a difficult question to answer. I will leave it at that. So I have to disagree with you when an individual wants to make a real estate transaction he or she can do so on their own and in most cases, if they learn what they are doing, can save on broker/agent fees. In todays market a buyer or seller should have little problem negotiating fees on the sellers side and do without a buyer's broker/agent all togeather. There are more for sale signs then there are buyers. If you are a buyer, without a broker, you can request comps for the area from the seller and most will give them to you at no charge. IF they dont then you do not want to do business with that agent in the first place. Taking time to look at those actual properties as comps, finding out if they were REO's, short sales or ?? from neighbors (Yes you can knock on doors and state you could be their new next door neighbor do they have anything they can tell you??). On the sales side, there are agencies who are listing homes in the MLS with the sellers doing all the work as far as meeting buyers, having open houses or??? The help u sell type operations can work for those who have learned how to sell your homes and the tricks you can do to aid in the sale. As always, knowledge is King. Learn, Learn, Learn, as this is the biggest purchase most folks will ever make and it can be a life changing one.
Actually, I have gone through the courses and the majority of todays teaching is about how to take the test and answer the questions on the real estate exam. This is the same as a contractors license or other industries where they teach you how to pass the licensing tests but nothing in practical knowledge. Its just like kids cheating on their video games to bypass levels by getting the codes to the game. Has anyone taken a driving school class after receiving a ticket?? Can anyone really state these on line classes make them better drivers?? Those who pass know almost nothing about the industry and thus the need for them to aquire a mentor where ever they hang their shingle. I have seen way to many newbie agents asking me what they need to do next after taking the exam. They are afraid if they do not take on a mentor they will be swimming in documentation hell or frightened they may do something illegal. Heck they don't even learn how to fill out the Brokerage house specific documentation. If these courses were so complete why then is there such a need and in many cases a demand from the brokerage house for the newbie to take on a mentor?? Sorry but I have been in this business for over 35 years and I stay on top of everything I can. 90 hours of class and home study will not even begin to teach the new agent even the first steps of how to protect their clients, understand shifting markets, recognize and analize correctly market trends, or provide any sort of reasonable return to their clients who pay any where from 4 to 6 percent of the sales price. And please don't tell me the brokerage commision is not on the buyers side as it is built into the sales price one way or another. And PLEEEASE don't tell me the majority of brokers or agents earn their splits at these high market rates for real estate.
YOu obviously do not practice here...or at least no where I have been. "Mentors" are not a construct in the local vocabularly. I personally think some form of apprenticeship ala the appraisers would be a very good idea. Don't expect it though. In Nevada they throw you into the shark tank and expect you to swim. Most newbys get there three or four inherent deals then go broke and go away.
The test is used as a tool to keep the really dumb out. And those who can't learn enough from one of the courses should not be practicing.
The compensation of the average agent comes out around 40K. That is actually insufficient if you want competent agents. Restriction entry and upping skill level might actually provide mechanisms that could lower the rate. But I don't personally believe the rate excessive given how the business is run. If you wnat an efficient market reward efficiency. The brokerages are rewarded for headcount so that is what they optimize.
Pru Americana did a reasonable job when I started out of explaining how to do the paperwork and how the systems work. For instance they actually did a reasonable job on caluculating a net sheet. There are certain things that are not "fair". Mangement protects productive agents. That however should come as no shock.
Quote:
I do not doubt you do your job honestly and ethically. I have stated there are agents and brokers who are competent and better suited for helping a buyer or seller make their decisions. Unfortunately there are very few of those out there and ultimately all agents are looking to score a commision. If there is an iffy situation on a piece of property I would be willing to wager the agent will still try to make the sale. Those advertisements previously shown are exactly the type of wholesale hogwash many if not most agents as well as their industry are willing to peddle.
IN general you fix the problem. Smart agents never finish a deal with a hidden problem. You fix it and/or disclose it. Of course you do it for the commission. What source of silliness are you preaching? You think agents are in the business to aid the consumer at all cost and without regard to pay? You join a relegious order and take care of the ill in rural Boliva if that is your calling. Are there jerks who cover and close? Sure...but not very many...and none get past me when I am on the other side.
The advertisement where not always what I would do but crossed no lines. Hell they did not even claim to make your member bigger.
Quote:
Again, if one chooses to be a sucker then expect the worse however if you study for yourself the ins and outs of real estate then there is more money to be made in this industry then almost any other. For homeowners, leveraged buying of your primary residence is fantastic as long as you are aware of the market trend, purchase correctly, analyze the difference between owning and renting and how it affects you in the long term regardless of market conditions. Merely looking at an industry graph showing the market has steadily climbed since the begining of man is just a starting point for proper decision making when it comes to purchasing a home.
Sure. Study as you can. However the average homeowners needs an agent to have a shot. My concern is the quality of that agent. The average consumer is never going to understand RE to the point of being even a mildly competent investor without some help.
Now one who wishes to amass wealth on the RE Market is in a different category and, in some dimensions, they need to be smarter than even a good RE Agent. You should not be in that business if you don't know how to do it and calculate the basics. It is amazing however how many idiots there are buying investment properties.
Quote:
If only someone would start a Youtube sight for those looking to sell or buy property and bypass the MLS entirely we might actually be able to get this market back on track but when the buyer is usually paying a built in 4 - 6 % commission and then when they sell another 4 - 6% commission
then value vs. cost becomes even more skewed. Sorry agents but most of you just were not worth the value we paid you. Now in a much trickier market you really might have to work to earn your pay. You might actually have to go out and not only find value for your clients but prove why the value is there. You might actually have to again go out and show
100 clients homes before you actually present an offer. And now you might actually have to track the entire process of the transaction including financing, inspections, signature cycles, escrow performance, etc. to assure the deal goes smoothly with few or no snags which if they do come up you will deal with in the most expeditious manner. Oh wait, that is what you were supposed to be doing in the first place.
FOD
You are being silly. The formal process generally runs pretty smoothly. Actually it is very good except when screwed up by amateurs or lenders. I have at the moment a couple of clients who think that all they have to do is make an offer 20% below a list that is 20% below the comps and they will walk away with the kind of value they expect. How many rejections do you think it takes to train such people that it does not work that way?
Your view on the size of the commission is also not very realistic. The total costs of an RE transaction witout loan costs runs around 7.5 to 9.0% of that 3 to 3.5% goes to costs such as escrow, Title Insurance, Transfer Tax, The rest is the RE commissions. I suggest you simply divide those in half. So any RE transaction causes each side a cost between 3.75 and 4.5%. I do not believe that to be unreasonable given how we choose to run the system. I suspect however you choose to run the system you can easily increase the cost from those numbers. You think the guy running the youtube like site will not get what the market will bear? And note that lack of a central MLS does not lower commissions. Try buying a place in MLS-less NYC sometime.
NAR advertising is general and to encourage the use of a Realtor versus not doing so. No reason why a trade group should not try to convince the public that they offer a valuable service and are better than the other options. Sounds reasonably rational to me.
Ads like the 2007 spot posted here are focused more on bringing people back to the market than to use realtors. NAR knows the majority will use agents anyway so they wisely focused on the macro issue in their ad time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt
Realtors are not remotely scalpers..try again. Every definiition of which I am aware invovles an individual who takes possession of an item to resell it. You can see I think why that would not apply to an RE Agent.
See #2 below.
Main Entry:
scalp
Date:
1676
transitive verb
1 a: to deprive of the scalp b: to remove an upper part from
2: to remove a desired constituent from and discard the rest
3: to buy and sell so as to make small quick profits <scalp stocks> <scalp grain>; especially : to resell at greatly increased prices <scalp theater tickets>
There is on occasion a conflict of interest between the Client and Agency. It occurs in all agency relationships not just real estate. There are ways to handle it. If an agent is working for his own interest rather than the client he is violating his duties. It happens but not very often.
I wasn't talking about the occasional fiduciary gray area. I was referring to the basic premise of a profession which earns its living by charging a percentage of all transactions. This creates a structural conflict of interest because it biases the agents to encourage principals to complete their transaction. It's the same for all sales professions. Even realtors doing their best to not unduly influence the process are unconsciously biased. I've watched it personally on several occasions. It's an unavoidable facet of human behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt
I can put forth any number of payment systems that would vastly improve the system. Having all buyers pay their own fees would be a good start. And payment made at least partially without success would be another.
Being in the NYC suburb market let me add a bit to olecapt's post from the east coast perspective.
The clients we deal with do not want to sell their own homes. They don't want the headaches of the phone calls, and having to be around all the time. Listing your home pays for the exposure of your home in the newspapers, realtor.com mls, etc. It pays for us to sit open houses for 4 hours on a Sunday to help sell their homes. Which includes sending out weekly neighborhood mailers for each open house. It costs the broker to advertise the property in all the above.
A listed property on the mls, has to be handled by agents. You can not go to the seller's house without one. You might knock on the door, but you and the seller can not make a transaction without at least the selling agent, who also then becomes a dual agent of the buyer. Using a broker also keeps the seller from intentionally lying (not disclosing) a problem with his/her home, most of the time. The sellers also only want qualified buyers so as not to waste their time.
OH and you are not going to get a better price if only the seller's agent is involved. The seller is still paying 5-6% commission regardless. So the seller's agent gets the full agent's share on both ends.
A good agent, knows how to "listen" to what a seller or buyer wants/needs.
A good agent will bend over backward for a serious client, as we all want referrals!
There is a lot of time and money (think gas) involved in working with buyers, and the compensation is usually not as much as you would think. Especially when working with buyers who need to see 50 homes before buying!
We enjoy our work or we wouldn't do it.
I am an interior designer by trade, but decided to go into the RE business, because I love architecture and to help people find the right home that fits their needs.
IN general you fix the problem. Smart agents never finish a deal with a hidden problem. You fix it and/or disclose it. Of course you do it for the commission. What source of silliness are you preaching? You think agents are in the business to aid the consumer at all cost and without regard to pay? You join a relegious order and take care of the ill in rural Boliva if that is your calling. Are there jerks who cover and close? Sure...but not very many...and none get past me when I am on the other side.
The "aid the consumer at all cost without regard to pay" is what most layman probably believe is their agent's fiduciary responsibility to be (or should be). It of course is more nuanced than that. The reality is that the buyer has no dis-interested party looking out for their full interests since everyone involved only gets their piece if the transaction completes.
Being in the NYC suburb market let me add a bit to olecapt's post from the east coast perspective.
You can't possibly be comparing the NYC burbs or Beverly Hills or?? with the Vegas market can you??
The clients we deal with do not want to sell their own homes. They don't want the headaches of the phone calls, and having to be around all the time. Listing your home pays for the exposure of your home in the newspapers, realtor.com mls, etc. It pays for us to sit open houses for 4 hours on a Sunday to help sell their homes. Which includes sending out weekly neighborhood mailers for each open house. It costs the broker to advertise the property in all the above.
Let me guess... You are not dealing with the average Vegas client most of whom would love to try and save their hard earned monies. Your market is nothing like most all of the other markets in America.
A listed property on the mls, has to be handled by agents. You can not go to the seller's house without one. You might knock on the door, but you and the seller can not make a transaction without at least the selling agent, who also then becomes a dual agent of the buyer. Using a broker also keeps the seller from intentionally lying (not disclosing) a problem with his/her home, most of the time. The sellers also only want qualified buyers so as not to waste their time.
Since when can you not contact the sellers agent directly, setting up an appointment and you DO NOT need a buyers broker to do so. Is there a new law I do not know about?? Their phone numbers are on both the newspaper ads and if allowed by the area on their for sale signs. I have almost always saved the 2 - 3 percent a buyers broker would charge by doing this myself. Please tell me how using a broker to assure the seller is not lying is any different than the buyer or seller being aware of disclosure laws as I have suggested. Sellers or their agents do NOT know who is comming to the door regardless if an agent is with them or not. They just want to sell their home. The fact a prospective buyer is with an agent does not mean they are a qualified buyer or the agent has any clue as to the qualifications of that buyer.
OH and you are not going to get a better price if only the seller's agent is involved. The seller is still paying 5-6% commission regardless. So the seller's agent gets the full agent's share on both ends.
WOW, Has NYC implemented a law that states commissions are mandatory for all transactions and they will be 5 - 6%??? If so then I guess some sellers I purchased property from owe a few agents/brokers some monies when they lowered their selling commissions when I purchased there without a buyers agent. I have always seen sellers agents lower their commissions to at least partially offset my lowball offers especially if they are hungry for a sale like they are right now or a seller insists they do so. Believe me, If I were a seller and my agent insisted on his or her double commission rather than consumating a sale that agent would be gone as soon as their contract was up. By the way, My contracts only are for 2 -3 months max. not 6 months like many insist on. However I always list my properties at a reasonable price since I only sell for specific reasons meaning I want to sell it quick, so the agent is doing very little work. My properties are clean and show extremely well as I do this as a business and know how to maximize the amounts of monies I put into a property.
A good agent, knows how to "listen" to what a seller or buyer wants/needs.
A good agent will bend over backward for a serious client, as we all want referrals!
In todays world a buyer or seller wants the best deal regardless if the agent has to take less for their work. If you listen you will hear that. If you continue to insist on those high commissions you may lose out to hungrier agents.
There is a lot of time and money (think gas) involved in working with buyers, and the compensation is usually not as much as you would think. Especially when working with buyers who need to see 50 homes before buying!
We enjoy our work or we wouldn't do it.
You ARE kidding right?? In the last bunch of years brokers have made unprecidented amounts of commissions for doing very little. Your farm area is NYC, please do not complain about gas or having to show 50 clients homes. Most of you guys could not possibly earn the kind of monies you have working the same amount of hours in any other job. Please don't B.S.
I am an interior designer by trade, but decided to go into the RE business, because I love architecture and to help people find the right home that fits their needs.
would it be fair to say you made more as a R.E. agent over the last 10 years than you did as an interior designer or did you go into the business to make interior design connections. Again, unless you are independently wealthy and just love this stuff or you were looking for connections you are in it for the easy money the industry has affored over the last many years. Now is the time to see how long you last in this tough market. I do hope you make it through these harsh economic times. Again, please don't B.S.
FOD
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That's the crux of the issue
