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The standardized test scores are currently 40 percent of the teacher rating and NYS wants it to be 60 percent. And yes, this means relative scores and individual personal growth in test scores from the previous year's scores. My daughter with more needs will bomb her test and it takes her 3 years to master a grade. Not her teacher's fault, but her scores will show poor growth.
So let me get this straight, Twingles. You are judging an entire profession based off of a bad experience in a single district years ago?
And Mongoose, there absolutely are not all of the contingencies you mentioned, but you are just SO much more informed about this. With all of this knowlege, you should consider becoming a teacher!
So let me get this straight...None of you bash teachers. They are just simply unprofessional and "not the sharpest pencils in the box" crybabies? Wow.....that just emanates respect for the profession.
Again, I am not a teacher. Just an informed - yes, informed parent. There are good teachers and bad teachers. That is true. Standardized tests are not the true judge. Should bad teachers stay as teachers? Of course not! But you all clearly have your own blanket opinions.
Wahhh, waahh. The workplace is soooo unfair. If you're not "highly effective" you get a job at McDonalds and someone else gets your job. Sounds fair to me. The system allows for all of your contingencies ie at risk youth, IEPs, starting and ending points of reference for scoring, etc. If a 1st grade student goes from starting point a to finishing point b, regardless of the actual score, THAT is the measure the teacher is judged on. NOT that every score has to be perfect or judged equally. That's just a falsehood. The scores are ASSESSMENTS. Core competencies (ie standardized tests) are measured at the start and end of each year. The "oh, we'll be judged unfairly" line is just another smokescreen to scare everyone cause heaven forbid a precious teacher might have to be judged on merit and productivity. The "teacher as victim" card once again. Let's toss ANY system because it MAY POTENTIALLY be slightly unfair (which it isn't) even though it was dreamed up by those same magnificent educators that passed through our mighty NYSED system. No one is expecting your special needs student to progress at the same rate as your gifted child. That is just ludicrous and believing that is how the tests and assessments work is silly and naive. The Union is dead set against ANY measure of teacher effectiveness, productivity or accountability AT ALL. Always has, always will. This is nothing new. They don't need "another way." This way is fine. They'll just float a lot of BS to scare everyone into thinking they are being persecuted as always and threaten to "just teach to the test and nothing else." Yeah, real professionalism there! Asking them to perform to a professional standard for their professional salary and benefits is considered "hating, bashing, attacking"...etc etc. Same old song and dance.
16 years (and counting) of children in the schools and at elementary level each has had 1 dud. It took almost 1/2 of the next school year for my oldest child to rebound from the previous year's dud.
IMHO I believe that there must be accountability. That 'lost year' cost my child considerably AND cost me money out-of-pocket when I sent him to Sylvan to help catch him up. If I hadn't done that, he would have been much further behind. Yet the teacher went on to collect his/her salary -- good, bad or mediocre performance. If the concept of social promotion did not exist, there is no way my child would have advanced to the next grade.
Dud #2 was a young, single teacher who spent considerable time in the hall chatting up her friend/neighboring teacher. I heard all about the vacation in Cancun, partying at clubs, etc. from my youngest and her friends. Please do not tell me that teaching was this young lady's calling. The only thing she heard was the KaChing of the paycheck.
Everyone else has been wonderful and I can't say enough good things.
It is my hope that if the teacher ratings are used, that it might rid us of some dead weight BEFORE it is tenured.
Agreed. So far we have had one dud teacher. She was young, inexperienced and just not on top of things. The other bigger and far worse dud we encountered was actually not a teacher, but a principal. She really set a very negative tone for the entire building- scared the kids, nasty to teachers and parents. Thankfully our kids no longer have her. But she is still principal- only now in a different elementary school from where our kids attend. Their current principal is fantastic, approachable, quick to address issues, etc.
Of course there has to be accountability. But even though a lot of people gripe about the salaries, I don't mind if effective teachers get an excellent salary. I also think that ineffective teachers should lose their jobs. I just question the current methods used to evaluate performance, because weighing standardized test scores so heavily can be dangerous when not looking at the whole picture.
There is also other fat that can be trimmed. Here in in our district, we are lacking some educational programs that our neighboring districts have because according to our district's central office "we are such a small district and do not have a large enough student population" and yet we have three superintendents. THREE! Superintendent, assistant superintendent and deputy superintendent. Really? Is that necessary?
Costs should be looked at across the board. Not just teachers, but administration as well.
The standardized test scores are currently 40 percent of the teacher rating and NYS wants it to be 60 percent. And yes, this means relative scores and individual personal growth in test scores from the previous year's scores. My daughter with more needs will bomb her test and it takes her 3 years to master a grade. Not her teacher's fault, but her scores will show poor growth.
So let me get this straight, Twingles. You are judging an entire profession based off of a bad experience in a single district years ago?
And Mongoose, there absolutely are not all of the contingencies you mentioned, but you are just SO much more informed about this. With all of this knowlege, you should consider becoming a teacher!
So let me get this straight...None of you bash teachers. They are just simply unprofessional and "not the sharpest pencils in the box" crybabies? Wow.....that just emanates respect for the profession.
Again, I am not a teacher. Just an informed - yes, informed parent. There are good teachers and bad teachers. That is true. Standardized tests are not the true judge. Should bad teachers stay as teachers? Of course not! But you all clearly have your own blanket opinions.
Are you sure that special needs students' scores will be factored in with, and treated the same as general ed students? I don't think that's how it works.
The standardized test scores are currently 40 percent of the teacher rating and NYS wants it to be 60 percent. And yes, this means relative scores and individual personal growth in test scores from the previous year's scores. My daughter with more needs will bomb her test and it takes her 3 years to master a grade. Not her teacher's fault, but her scores will show poor growth.
So let me get this straight, Twingles. You are judging an entire profession based off of a bad experience in a single district years ago?
And Mongoose, there absolutely are not all of the contingencies you mentioned, but you are just SO much more informed about this. With all of this knowlege, you should consider becoming a teacher!
So let me get this straight...None of you bash teachers. They are just simply unprofessional and "not the sharpest pencils in the box" crybabies? Wow.....that just emanates respect for the profession.
Again, I am not a teacher. Just an informed - yes, informed parent. There are good teachers and bad teachers. That is true. Standardized tests are not the true judge. Should bad teachers stay as teachers? Of course not! But you all clearly have your own blanket opinions.
No. You don't refute anything I say because I was accurate. I am more informed about this than most teachers and parents. If your daughter will "bomb," her teacher has a role in that poor progress, don't you think? Or is your daughter just supposed to fend for herself and the teacher should just concede failure? We pointed out that standardized tests are NOT the true judge and just an entry point into TRYING to make teacher's more accountable. You contradict yourself in your own post starting with "scores are 40% of the rating' and ending with "Standardized tests are not the true judge." Correct. They are not. So what are you fighting about?
Once again, the "bashing" is about performance as it relates to salary, benefits, local household incomes and fair market wages. Not because us meanies just "hate" teachers, those poor, persecuted darlings.
I have posted ad nauseum about the redundancy of the administrators and their salaries are more egregious than the teachers but those salaries were of course driven up by the teachers. What teacher making $150k+ is going to move to 12 months in a highly visible, notoriously political and HARD job by comparison of Administrator without seeking the big $ for it? Thus the school boards are starting at $200k for a Super and they also negotiate raises to match the union benefits. If a KG teacher is making $120k, you bet the Super is going to make $240. It becomes "fair" in that system. A system that is broken and abused.
The reason programs are being cut is not due to the Admin salaries alone. In fact the Admins at least took pay freezes in most districts. It's the teacher's contractual (step AND union) raises and pension obligations that drive costs. At zero budget increase there are still those two costs that the District can do nothing about. Those costs alone might not make it under the 2% cap. So taxes go up, kids get nothing (in fact lose programs), teachers get raises (7%), benefits and guaranteed pensions. That is the cause for the resentment. As I said before. Teachers should just cut the "victim" crap, acknowledge they have a good job and step up to the plate to show their professionalism and prove their worth without whining about how unfair it all is. Frankly, we're sick of hearing about it.
Last edited by mongoose65; 09-29-2012 at 08:25 PM..
No. You don't refute anything I say because I was accurate. I am more informed about this than most teachers and parents. If your daughter will "bomb," her teacher has a role in that poor progress, don't you think? Or is your daughter just supposed to fend for herself and the teacher should just concede failure? We pointed out that standardized tests are NOT the true judge and just an entry point into TRYING to make teacher's more accountable. You contradict yourself in your own post starting with "scores are 40% of the rating' and ending with "Standardized tests are not the true judge." Correct. They are not. So what are you fighting about?
Once again, the "bashing" is about performance as it relates to salary, benefits, local household incomes and fair market wages. Not because us meanies just "hate" teachers, those poor, persecuted darlings.
Forget it. Teachers have been put on a pedestal so long their union thinks they can bash the taxpayers and throw the wool over everyone's eyes. When time comes to collect on investment of the tax dollars then we revert to the "blame the parents", then "not enough funding", then we go to "it's all the tests fault". We are not allowed to say anything bad about the teachers, and we dare not actually hold them accountable for any of their failings (see previous reasons).
16 years (and counting) of children in the schools and at elementary level each has had 1 dud. It took almost 1/2 of the next school year for my oldest child to rebound from the previous year's dud.
IMHO I believe that there must be accountability. That 'lost year' cost my child considerably AND cost me money out-of-pocket when I sent him to Sylvan to help catch him up. If I hadn't done that, he would have been much further behind. Yet the teacher went on to collect his/her salary -- good, bad or mediocre performance. If the concept of social promotion did not exist, there is no way my child would have advanced to the next grade.
Dud #2 was a young, single teacher who spent considerable time in the hall chatting up her friend/neighboring teacher. I heard all about the vacation in Cancun, partying at clubs, etc. from my youngest and her friends. Please do not tell me that teaching was this young lady's calling. The only thing she heard was the KaChing of the paycheck.
Everyone else has been wonderful and I can't say enough good things.
It is my hope that if the teacher ratings are used, that it might rid us of some dead weight BEFORE it is tenured.
I'm curious though. How can you avoid these incompetents entirely (whether in a public or private school setting) and is this a realistic expectation? I went to Catholic school from 1 to 12 and almost every year we had at least one incompetent teacher. However, we moved on and still had a great education overall with many of us eventually attending top tier US universities.
Silverbullet- Who said teachers should not be held accountable for doing good work? Not me. Of course they should be held accountable!
And Mongoose- you are putting words in my mouth. When did I suggest that my daughter should be left to fend for herself? And you imply that we and the teachers are conceding to failure, what- because we know that she learns at her own pace and thus her test scores will never match the NYS expectations for her age? That is automatically educational failure? No....it is not that simple. In fact, my point is the opposite. She is making tremendous personal progress, becoming more independent with her self care, attending to tasks better, following directions better, recognizing basic shapes, identifying most letters. Beginning to write her first name. She is now in 1st grade and has been working on these same skills for 3 years. She gets speech therapy every day. She still does not know most letter sounds nor does she have many other pre reading skills. Has a couple of basic sightwords- inconsistently. She works with her teachers, her PT, OT, speech therapists, her aide, and us, each and every day...using visual aids and technology to aid in her learning. It is just HER pace at which she learns. All the academic skills she does have are very new /have just started to click and we are overjoyed. But this will never be reflected in improved standardized test scores from year to year because she requires a very long time to master new skills, and she is still far off from grade level curriculum, with skills still scattered between preschool level and beginner kindergarten level and even some toddler level. And no- she is not exempt from testing. If it takes her 3 years or more to master one grade level due to her disability, she will not have moved up a year's worth of progress every year. How is this a failure on the part of the teachers exactly? How are we and they letting her down? No one can undo her cognitive delays and severe neurological issues or change her IQ from a 55 to 120. They can only push her to reach her personal best. She will not be given a kindergarten test in second grade. She will take a 2nd grade test in 2nd grade. How will NYS know that she finally mastered kindergarten skills when all the questions are at a 2nd grade level and are over her head?
Many school administrators would like to pay teachers according to the success of their students in passing standardized tests. At first, this seems like a very good idea and parents willingly join the bandwagon. However, anybody who understands statistics ( a very small percentage of people) will be quick to point out the TRUTH. Comparison of Teacher A's results to Teacher B's results are not valid. Simply because Teacher A's class is not identical to Teacher B's class. They are not the same 'sample', therefore no valid conclusion can be drawn. Administrators latch onto this merit pay idea because they desparately seek to somehow quantify teacher performance. They are looking for a measure of how well each teacher teaches. They are seeking to scientifically quantify what is, in essence, an art form. You can't scientifically quantify good art, music or literature. You can't quantify teachers either.
Consider, if you will, Teacher A has a class of geniuses and teacher B has a class of morons. Teacher A's success rate on a particular exam is 88%. Teacher B's success rate on the same exam is 45%. Can you really justify that Teacher A is a better teacher than Teacher B and deserves more pay? Really? If you can, you know nothing about statistics.
What is shocking about all this is that there are Administrators (making big bucks) who are fully aware of Statistics (or should be) and they buy into this scam just to get the parents off their a$$!! Now there is a problem you might want to sink your teeth into.
^^ Exactly as I have been saying. Too many variables.
Not only that......but part of this current evaluation process is based on individual student test score IMPROVEMENT from year to year. FACT. If a kid scores well in 6th grade and scores equally well on the 7th grade ELA test, the 7th grade teacher is seen as ineffective, even though:
1. The student did great on their exams, two years in a row.
2. The 7th grade ELA is MUCH MUCH more difficult than the 6th grade test.
Because technically they did not show improvement. They were just "equally" great two years in a row.
Forget no two classes having the same makeup. Can we even say that all tests, year after year are created equal? Even taking into account the one extra year in school, there is a huge jump from 6th grade to 7th grade ELA.
There are also many kids who do well in school but do not score as well on their ELAs and math assesments. Why? Because they know it does not count toward their average/go on their school report card. That is a fact.
And yes, there is a LOT of fat to trim in administration. Duplicate positions and such, as discussed earlier.
Again....not all is as it appears. This is not a black and white issue.
There are great teachers and bad teachers......fortunately much more good than bad. Maybe to keep things in balance there need to be observations and drop in visits by a quality control team, like when the health dept pays random visits and annual visits to hospitals and nursing homes....an audit of sorts to weed out the incompetent. But using standardized tests scores to compare teachers to each other, with no regard for all of the other variables does not paint a true picture of
which teachers are more effective than others.
And to answer Peqs...no one is exempt from testing, except for first year ESL students, which is also funny since it takes those kids years to catch up on academic language. But all kids' scores ARE factored in and all kids are held to the same testing standards REGARDLESS of whether they are general ed, special ed, 504, have an IEP or not, whether they are ESL or not, etc which is ridiculous and setting these kids up. My other kid with special needs has Aspergers and is in a regular ed class. Smart as anything, but no attention span. His IQ is over the top, but testing is a problem as he really struggles to sit still. He is amazingly good at math, but like all other kids on the Spectrum, he is so behind on language and has tremendous difficulty with ELA skills as a result. With his being on sensory overload all the time, all his attention and effort go to sitting, so then listening and focusing goes out the window. He does well on his school work, but needs constant help to stay focused. But he has the academic concepts. Sitting for 90 min to take a test will not reveal his academic strengths or what he truly knows. That is not the teacher's fault, because he does know the material. There are a lot of kids with ADHD and high functioning autism who are the same way and are super smart, know the material, can apply it to life but cannot take tests well. And that means they have an ineffective teacher? Hmm...
Last edited by kdlugozi; 09-30-2012 at 02:51 AM..
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