05-01-2009, 08:06 PM
Location: Bucksport, Maine and northern Florida
90 posts, read
302,740 times
Reputation: 45
Hello all!
05-01-2009, 10:40 PM
Location: Forests of Maine
37,461 posts, read
61,379,739 times
Reputation: 30414
It has been tried.
05-02-2009, 05:52 AM
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read
3,933,535 times
Reputation: 1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truckmen
Hello all!
I guess I am not clear about what you are calling a "geothermal heat pump". From what you wrote, it would appear that you are thinking of installing a closed loop that contains a transfer medium beneath a gravel floor with the idea that the loop will keep the space with the gravel floor warm.
Simply put: it won't work.
A geothermal heat pump of any type, takes the medium that is circulated, either through a loop or water from deep in a well, and runs it through a device not unlike an air conditioner. The ground temperature which will be around 50 degrees, is then raised to the point where it will provide heat that is then transfered to the occupied space. This is Charles Law in physics where an increase in pressure will yield an increase in temperature.
But if you are going to have a loop underneath gravel, you will radiate heat downward as well as upward unless you pour the gravel floor on a big thick slab of insulation, and even then, the heated gravel won't radiate heat very well, unless the walls of the surrounding space are exceptionally well insulated also.
Ground source heat pumps (or the new high efficiency air source heat pumps) work extremely well where ever properly installed. But they are NOT just a different source of heat that is cheap or free. To being with the amount of insulation is critical, and the way that it is installed must be done deliberately to support geothermal heat pumps.
Also the loop that you would use would likely be several hundred feet long, based on the size of the house you mention. The heat pump will need to have probably at least two tons of output, in air conditioning compressor terms. The installation will be a fairly significant front end cost.
But the most serious limitation to using geothermal energy in Maine is the cost of electricity here. Geothermal and other types of heat pumps use electricity in the pumping and pressurizing of the heat pump systems. About three months ago I had Maritime Geothermal in Pedicodiac New Brunswick they have a web site) compute the size of ground source heat pump that I might need for a cape style house of less than 2000 square feet. The heat pump in question would have used 2500 watts when running, which made it simply out of the question at that point, when considering Maine electric rates that can be counted on only to rise in the future.
I have been studying geothermal heat pumps for our new retirement home for the past fifteen years, and have come to the conclusion that they would not be appropriate for us since we will be building and living "off grid". Here in Maine the chief issue with heat pumps is the cost of electricity and the relative little insulation that people put in their new homes, and the little amount of insulation that people have in older homes. The combination of those two issues kill the concept of heat pump use.
I suggest that you look at this web site:
www.passivehouse.us for information about low energy heating. Passive House is a movement in northern Europe where it is becoming the energy and building code for new home construction.
05-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Location: Bucksport, Maine and northern Florida
90 posts, read
302,740 times
Reputation: 45
Hello Forest Beekeeper and Acadian Lion,
05-02-2009, 07:00 PM
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read
18,679,925 times
Reputation: 11563
Kudos to those above with real valid advice above. Nobody has ever saved money in Maine by using a geothermal heating system. Simply said, it is the most expensive heating system you can install in Maine and you will likely be cold.
05-02-2009, 09:38 PM
973 posts, read
2,381,332 times
Reputation: 1322
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Northern Maine Land Man
Nobody has ever saved money in Maine by using a geothermal heating system. Simply said, it is the most expensive heating system you can install in Maine and you will likely be cold.
I'm not so sure I would agree with that. I know of a 4000 sq ft house in Houlton that has a Nordic heat pump from New Brunswick that averaged $350 a month during the past winter for electric, which drove the heat pump plus whatever other electrical needs. I'm pretty sure a 4000 sq ft house would have run over $100 a month just for electric, so it's very much in the ball park for heating. Let the oil man make another run which is coming and it will be a bargain. Key is in the combination of insulation and geothermal...and we will all see it down the road.
05-03-2009, 07:14 AM
Location: Forests of Maine
37,461 posts, read
61,379,739 times
Reputation: 30414
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysmith
I'm not so sure I would agree with that. I know of a 4000 sq ft house in Houlton that has a Nordic heat pump from New Brunswick that averaged $350 a month during the past winter for electric, which drove the heat pump plus whatever other electrical needs. I'm pretty sure a 4000 sq ft house would have run over $100 a month just for electric, so it's very much in the ball park for heating. Let the oil man make another run which is coming and it will be a bargain. Key is in the combination of insulation and geothermal...and we will all see it down the road.
'Nuetral balanced' homes are a big deal on 'Hot and Cold'. Homes where the heat from cooking, body heat, your TV and stereo; al add up to be enough to maintain your home at a comfortable temp through the winter.
Folks do call in and ask commonly about heat pumps. The hosts rattle off various examples of heat pumps in the state; they appear to be very familiar with each attempt to run heat pumps. To change their design enough to make them economic to operate.
My question about the home your talking about is; why is it such a secret?
4000sq ft is a large home, and $350/month for electric is a fairly high electric bill.
So it kind of puts this house of yours on par with wood heat.
I wonder why we have not been hearing more about this house.
05-03-2009, 11:39 AM
973 posts, read
2,381,332 times
Reputation: 1322
Quote:
Originally Posted by
forest beekeeper
My question about the home your talking about is; why is it such a secret?
Who said it's a secret. I've posted several times that geothermal systems are going in up in the County. Harbison's Plumbing has done at least a half dozen in the past six months. Folks are satisfied with them. $350 for electric costs during the winter on a 4000 sq ft house that includes heating is extremely cost effective in my eyes. There are plenty of houses in the county that are heated by burning 100 gallons of fuel oil a week. There are people moving out of houses into apartments because they can't afford the cost of heating them.
County people aren't the type that typically toot their own horn. I do feel however that everytime someone posts about geothermal that standard answer shouldn't be it won't work...they at least should be made aware that it's out there and from what I see tends to be working...at least installations sized correctly and done correctly. I'm sure Harbison's would have much information and be able to show a potential customer installations that are working.
05-03-2009, 04:54 PM
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read
18,679,925 times
Reputation: 11563
In a super-insulated house with R-40 or R-50 ratings those numbers are certainly attainable. Costs for such insulation are very high and impractical for existing homes. The common example is that "you can heat such a home with a candle". Compare apples with apples and again, "nobody has ever saved money in Maine by using a geothermal heating system".
05-03-2009, 05:20 PM
Location: Forests of Maine
37,461 posts, read
61,379,739 times
Reputation: 30414
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Northern Maine Land Man
In a super-insulated house with R-40 or R-50 ratings those numbers are certainly attainable. Costs for such insulation are very high and impractical for existing homes. The common example is that "you can heat such a home with a candle". Compare apples with apples and again, "nobody has ever saved money in Maine by using a geothermal heating system".
Well darn, if your going to add proper insulation, then you cheating.
With enough insulation a house can be heated cooking dinner, and from the heat radiating from the back of your TV.
We have R-60 and it is a rain-forest half the winter. Must find a way to deal with the humidity.
I do enjoy listening to the UM professor talk about insulation and heating systems though
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People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)
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